Liberty U Gone Berserk

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Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby KeithE » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:07 pm

Posted on the Baptist History and Heritage Forum by none other than Stephen Fox, this needs to read by a wide audience.

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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Haruo » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:23 am

Thanks, Keith!
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:23 am

Hasn't just gone--been that way for a long time.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:09 am

What did LU do wrong or crazy?

Forbid someone from coming on their campus who has a record of verbal assault against LU?

Even this web site form has lines drawn that one should not cross if they want to be welcome here. I think we all support that. Why is the principle right for some and not others?
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:23 am

I am watching LU trying to get graduates into BGAV churches to steal churches for the SBCV. They operate under false pretenses, get the pastor in, and then he attacks to allegiances of the church and tells them that to follow God, they need to change state conventions. It that is ethical, I'm a monkey's uncle. Of course, the way Jerry, Sr., built Thomas Road was by giving bicycles and other rewards to the lucky bus rider and by standing out from other Baptists in Lynchburg by supporting segregation. I know, that's old news.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Haruo » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:55 am

Bob Jones still seems to be pretty pro-white.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:28 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:I am watching LU trying to get graduates into BGAV churches to steal churches for the SBCV. They operate under false pretenses, get the pastor in, and then he attacks to allegiances of the church and tells them that to follow God, they need to change state conventions. It that is ethical, I'm a monkey's uncle. Of course, the way Jerry, Sr., built Thomas Road was by giving bicycles and other rewards to the lucky bus rider and by standing out from other Baptists in Lynchburg by supporting segregation. I know, that's old news.



Why would a BGAV Church even look to Liberty for a pastor? This makes no sense if the BGVA churches have any sensibilities.

Jerry Sr marketed well. It is paying off today. A great school, producing great student and future leaders across the world.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:33 pm

Jon Estes wrote:

Why would a BGAV Church even look to Liberty for a pastor? This makes no sense if the BGVA churches have any sensibilities.

Jerry Sr marketed well. It is paying off today. A great school, producing great student and future leaders across the world.


Jon, if there is anything I learned pastoring several Baptist churches is that the qualifications of a pastor search committee vary. I've interviewed with committees who were well informed, knew their stuff, knew what they needed and knew about ministerial credentials. I've also interviewed with committees run by a few power brokers in the church including factional committees that just might want to call a new pastor to turn a church some direction or another. Its a mixed bag.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Sandy » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:07 pm

Standing up against LU's white Christian nationalist perspective isn't "verbal assault." This guy's perspective is more consistent with Biblical principles than the school's perspective is. So he is banned from Campus, but they're OK putting a Mormon or an immoral philandering adulterer in their chapel speaking spot.

Among the ranks of the Christian school students and parents I work with, Liberty isn't a high choice.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Haruo » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:20 pm

There's a fairly prominent though relatively new American Esperantist, Alex Miller, who graduated from Liberty (and whose father, I think, teaches there). He's written a couple of really cute bilingual children's books.

But I still mainly associate Liberty with Landover, at least I think I do.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:04 pm

Junior’s full thoated suppor for Trump is bizarre at best. His father’s supporters in the “Moral Majority” of Jerry Senior’s days would be floored with Falwell Jr.’s support of Trump. I can’t think of a least personally moral man in the White House in my lifetime.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:42 am

Every BGAV church listed as having a pastor leave receives resumes from the LU Divinity School, unsolicited. Those come blind, but as Tim pointed out, search committees often do not train on how to get a pastor who can lead them in chosen directions. In far too many churches, one good sermon and you are in.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:51 am

Sandy wrote:Standing up against LU's white Christian nationalist perspective isn't "verbal assault." This guy's perspective is more consistent with Biblical principles than the school's perspective is. So he is banned from Campus, but they're OK putting a Mormon or an immoral philandering adulterer in their chapel speaking spot.

isnt it amazing that you mock the fact they bring those of different places in this world to speak at their convocation, different than a chapel. I thought you would support such diversity. Guess I am wrong.

Among the ranks of the Christian school students and parents I work with, Liberty isn't a high choice.

this does not surprise me. Among the ranks I’m familiar with... it is. I have a church member from India planning on starting in the fall.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:57 am

Dave Roberts wrote:Every BGAV church listed as having a pastor leave receives resumes from the LU Divinity School, unsolicited. Those come blind, but as Tim pointed out, search committees often do not train on how to get a pastor who can lead them in chosen directions. In far too many churches, one good sermon and you are in.


Such evil pastors and such innocent churches.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:18 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:Every BGAV church listed as having a pastor leave receives resumes from the LU Divinity School, unsolicited. Those come blind, but as Tim pointed out, search committees often do not train on how to get a pastor who can lead them in chosen directions. In far too many churches, one good sermon and you are in.


Such evil pastors and such innocent churches.


It's the pattern of the sender, not the evil of the pastors. They are just doing what they have been taught. Even CBF churches get a stack of bios from LU. Caveat emptor!
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby KeithE » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:30 am

I’m going to ask a recent LU Sem graduate (on line student) about this practice of a ‘con in sheep’s clothing’ tactic. I suspect it is side cabal of on campus ministerial students / conniving profs - if it is real at all.
Last edited by KeithE on Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Sandy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:31 am

Jon Estes wrote:isnt it amazing that you mock the fact they bring those of different places in this world to speak at their convocation, different than a chapel. I thought you would support such diversity. Guess I am wrong.


It would have been diversity if they'd also extended an invitation to speak in "convocation" to Bill and Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. It is simply hypocrisy to threaten this particular activist with arrest if he "trespassed," but to allow the influence of a cultist and an adulterer in "convocation." Romney's presence was seen as a signal of the school's soft stance against cult practices, and an endorsement of Mormonism, and Trump's presence is seen as a pass on adultery, lying and other values that Liberty's leadership have abandoned in favor of political expedience.

Perhaps they could round things out by getting a Jehovah's Witness and a Muslim to round out the convocation schedule for this semester.

Sounds like what is irritating Falwell is the fact that there are a lot of Liberty students who exercise their first amendment rights, and are turning up in rather large numbers at the rallies.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... us/544571/
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby JE Pettibone » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:21 am

Jon Estes wrote:What did LU do wrong or crazy?

Forbid someone from coming on their campus who has a record of verbal assault against LU?

Even this web site form has lines drawn that one should not cross if they want to be welcome here. I think we all support that. Why is the principle right for some and not others?


Ed: Jon, you are mixing apples and oranges. The few RULES of BL.C apply to posting behavior not to political or religious views.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:33 am

Dave Roberts wrote:Every BGAV church listed as having a pastor leave receives resumes from the LU Divinity School, unsolicited. Those come blind, but as Tim pointed out, search committees often do not train on how to get a pastor who can lead them in chosen directions. In far too many churches, one good sermon and you are in.


In the ABC there is help in the search offered by region staff. But, local churches don’t always take the help or listen to good advice.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:53 am

Tim Bonney wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:Every BGAV church listed as having a pastor leave receives resumes from the LU Divinity School, unsolicited. Those come blind, but as Tim pointed out, search committees often do not train on how to get a pastor who can lead them in chosen directions. In far too many churches, one good sermon and you are in.


In the ABC there is help in the search offered by region staff. But, local churches don’t always take the help or listen to good advice.


With the reductions of state convention staffs across the South, most matching is now left to computers or simply done on "the flood method" of sending the stack out en masse, often overwhelming the committee in a church. As an interim, I teach a session on how to read ministers' resumes. I've still been ignored, even when I taught that course. There are also frequently coded references in resumes that churches need to learn to recognize like the two: "I subscribe to the Baptist Faith and Message 2000," or "I subscribe to the Baptist Faith and Message 1963."
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:17 am

JE Pettibone wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:What did LU do wrong or crazy?

Forbid someone from coming on their campus who has a record of verbal assault against LU?

Even this web site form has lines drawn that one should not cross if they want to be welcome here. I think we all support that. Why is the principle right for some and not others?


Ed: Jon, you are mixing apples and oranges. The few RULES of BL.C apply to posting behavior not to political or religious views.


Nope... the home owner gets to choose who enters their home to speak... or be told to not enter their home.

I am of the opinion that the anti Trump behavior of the group wanting to come into their home was unwelcome.

Same principle.. apples to apples.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:21 am

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:isnt it amazing that you mock the fact they bring those of different places in this world to speak at their convocation, different than a chapel. I thought you would support such diversity. Guess I am wrong.


It would have been diversity if they'd also extended an invitation to speak in "convocation" to Bill and Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. It is simply hypocrisy to threaten this particular activist with arrest if he "trespassed," but to allow the influence of a cultist and an adulterer in "convocation." Romney's presence was seen as a signal of the school's soft stance against cult practices, and an endorsement of Mormonism, and Trump's presence is seen as a pass on adultery, lying and other values that Liberty's leadership have abandoned in favor of political expedience.

Perhaps they could round things out by getting a Jehovah's Witness and a Muslim to round out the convocation schedule for this semester.

Sounds like what is irritating Falwell is the fact that there are a lot of Liberty students who exercise their first amendment rights, and are turning up in rather large numbers at the rallies.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... us/544571/


Nope. I doubt that irritates Falwell at all. The worlds largets student body Christian University knows they will have student who disagree along the way. No sweat.

So their diversity is not enough diversity? I guess when we have our own schools we can set the diverse level to our liking. For now, I fully support the university which allows me to adjunct.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:35 am

My problem with LU is their confusion of Christianity and Americanism into the heresy or Americianity, a corruption of Christianity first identified in the writings of Robert McAfee Brown in the 1950's. Jon, you as an international pastor, should have this at the top of your list. The conflating of cultural values with those of Christ has always been, in my humble opinion, a form of idolatry that creates American exceptionalism and a sense that we as Americans share a special relationship with God, almost as a replacement for Israel. It also runs counter to the movement of Christianity which will soon, if it is not already, be centered in Africa and Latin America. Also, training drone pilots to bomb in the name of Christian America bothers me since Liberty trains more drone pilots for the US than any other institution. I realize this is just from me.

As far as LU's right to block someone from coming to their campus, I support that as much as I support more liberal institutions right to block conservative voices if they so choose. The property of univeersities is their property to administer as they see fit.
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Sandy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:19 am

Jon Estes wrote:The worlds largets student body Christian University knows they will have student who disagree along the way. No sweat.


It obviously bothers Falwell, especially the sheer number of Liberty students showing up in support of the activist and his rallies in Lynchburg. Otherwise, there'd be no ban on his presence on the campus.

Well, I guess perhaps it might be progress these days to consider adultery, fornication, cheating in business, running gaming casinos and strip joints, and hanging out with porn starts, along with patently false theology as common values to expand the diversity of the "world's largest Christian university". You go ahead and support that, Jon. When you come up with a good, Biblical based sermon on why a night of sex with a porn star is a good illustration of a Biblical principle, or ten reasons why "God Really Did Have Sex With Mary and Does Live on the Planet Kolob", send me a copy.

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Apparently, declining enrollment at Liberty is large enough to drop the stats for the entire state. I love the language used to explain. "Well, it really didn't decline," then when the numbers prove otherwise, "We anticipated the decline due to new personnel and a new system." A decline of over 10,000 in one program in one year? Anticipated?
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Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:55 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
With the reductions of state convention staffs across the South, most matching is now left to computers or simply done on "the flood method" of sending the stack out en masse, often overwhelming the committee in a church. As an interim, I teach a session on how to read ministers' resumes. I've still been ignored, even when I taught that course. There are also frequently coded references in resumes that churches need to learn to recognize like the two: "I subscribe to the Baptist Faith and Message 2000," or "I subscribe to the Baptist Faith and Message 1963."


The ABC uses a standard profile that everyone fills out. So it helps on comparing apples to apples. But knowing that if someone went to Gordon Conwell they are probably a conservative and if the went to Union in NY they are probably more liberal is something that search committees don't always know.
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