Liberty U Gone Berserk

Open discussion on general Baptist-related topics of interest to Baptists around the world.

Moderator: Dave Roberts

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Haruo » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:05 pm

Did the IRS ever get back to him to discuss the $97 bucks? I recall the Catholic archbishop of Seattle, the late Rev. Hunthausen, engaged in a similar tactic vis-a-vis taxes and military spending. Don't recall the details, but this definitely reminded me of that.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12205
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby ET » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:02 pm

Well, forgive me, but I'll revisit my previous post. I may not be far off on my assessment....

From the redletterchristians.org: "Let's Change Course Starting This Tax Day"
This new code increases our national deficit by $3 trillion dollars by shifting yet more money to corporations and those at the very top of the income scale...But I know that their preference-the-rich policy does not faithfully support our people or our national needs....It fails the Jesus test when he instructs us to love our neighbors. It fails the test of the Hebrew Scriptures that call on us to care for the orphan and the widow.

Translation: More money in the hands of politicians is more Jesus-approved than leaving it in the hands of those who make it.

Meanwhile, here in Memphis, a few weeks ago a little hometown corporation by the name of FedEx announced they would invest $1,000,000,000 - that's "billion" with a "b" - in their facilities here. Some pay actions were also announced. I'm guessing all this "fails the Jesus test". Employing more people, increasing the pay of others, generating economic activity.

So I find the red-letter Christian philosophy on money to largely be: "Our politicians know better how to spend your money than you do. And Jesus would want us to be spending it instead of you."
I'm Ed Thompson, and I approve this message.
User avatar
ET
 
Posts: 2805
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:20 pm
Location: Cordova, TN

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby KeithE » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:54 pm

Haruo wrote:Did the IRS ever get back to him to discuss the $97 bucks? I recall the Catholic archbishop of Seattle, the late Rev. Hunthausen, engaged in a similar tactic vis-a-vis taxes and military spending. Don't recall the details, but this definitely reminded me of that.

Don’t know the outcome.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8819
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby KeithE » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:05 pm

ET wrote:Well, forgive me, but I'll revisit my previous post. I may not be far off on my assessment....

From the redletterchristians.org: "Let's Change Course Starting This Tax Day"
This new code increases our national deficit by $3 trillion dollars by shifting yet more money to corporations and those at the very top of the income scale...But I know that their preference-the-rich policy does not faithfully support our people or our national needs....It fails the Jesus test when he instructs us to love our neighbors. It fails the test of the Hebrew Scriptures that call on us to care for the orphan and the widow.

Translation: More money in the hands of politicians is more Jesus-approved than leaving it in the hands of those who make it.


Truth is the rich CEOs have been increasing their own pay since 1980 (with very little increases for their lower paid employees) and the resulting income inequality has now reached the Gilded Age levels.

Image

So it is not the hands "who make it” but the hands “who take it” who has been winning for the last 40 years w/o much sweat. Seems to me that if Trump and the GOP wanted to leave in the "hands that make” the products, they would have those tax cuts primarily for the lower and middle class who actually make the products that serve Americans.

Now is not the time to make that income inequality even worse by handing huge tax cuts to the rich and pittance to the poor. But that is exactly what is happening.

Image
Note: that 14.3% of at a min of $1M is $143,000 for those over 1$M income/year; while 0.4% of a max of $10K is $40 for the poorest. That’s at least 3575x as much “care” for the rich - who do not really need it.

From the red-letter.org article:
In short, the Republicans in Congress are proud that they are creating even bigger economic divides in our nation through their skewed tax policy.


ET wrote: So I find the red-letter Christian philosophy on money to largely be: "Our politicians know better how to spend your money than you do. And Jesus would want us to be spending it instead of you."


The red-letter Christians are asking that “our politicians”, our groups, and all of us individuals to spend money helping people. Jesus cares about who and what we spend the money on, not who spends it.

ET wrote:Meanwhile, here in Memphis, a few weeks ago a little hometown corporation by the name of FedEx announced they would invest $1,000,000,000 - that's "billion" with a "b" - in their facilities here. Some pay actions were also announced. I'm guessing all this "fails the Jesus test". Employing more people, increasing the pay of others, generating economic activity.


Are you claiming this is due to the Trump/GOP tax cuts?? Truth is it is because Fed Ex has the opportunity (and is smartly - I think- betting on exploiting that) to deliver more packages due to changes in how we shop - online. Of course “announcements” are easy to make and will be adjusted as time passes. Trump is complaining about Amazon online sales instead of embracing change and adapting. Kinda like his love of coal.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8819
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Sandy » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:53 pm

Pretty much ever since Reagan's days, it seems that conservative Christians have been adjusting their Biblical beliefs in order to advocate for the rich getting richer. But I think the reaction to groups and leaders like this one from "Evangelical leaders" like Falwell Jr. is just jealousy over the fact that they are drawing the whole generation of younger people that Evangelicals aren't. They're not going to get them back by compromising on the teachings of Jesus.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8800
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby ET » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:54 am

KeithE wrote:
ET wrote:Meanwhile, here in Memphis, a few weeks ago a little hometown corporation by the name of FedEx announced they would invest $1,000,000,000 - that's "billion" with a "b" - in their facilities here. Some pay actions were also announced. I'm guessing all this "fails the Jesus test". Employing more people, increasing the pay of others, generating economic activity.


Are you claiming this is due to the Trump/GOP tax cuts?? Truth is it is because Fed Ex has the opportunity (and is smartly - I think- betting on exploiting that) to deliver more packages due to changes in how we shop - online.

I am claiming that any given corporation that will have it's profits taxed at 21% instead of 35% has a lot more money to work with for whatever business goals they have. I have little doubt that FedEx and any other U.S. corporation that have announced various spending plans have done so because they expect to have greater income due to reduced taxes. Some actions may be new and due solely to tax rate changes, others may be accelerated and brought forward because a greater cash flow will exist.

If some of these companies repatriate overseas income, then we can have a discussion of whether taxing actual money at 21% is better than taxing no money at 35%.

Sandy wrote:Pretty much ever since Reagan's days, it seems that conservative Christians have been adjusting their Biblical beliefs in order to advocate for the rich getting richer.

Oh, you take me back, Sandy....
"At some time during the 20th century, the Democratic Party came to believe that the state is not a fickle abuser of human liberty (as liberals once held); instead, the state could be an angel of good whose mission is to bring about the equality between rich and poor which dreamers have always dreamed about. The means: redistribution of income. For the Left, redistribution became a rod of judgment, separating wolves from sheep. Those in favor are noble, those opposed 'mean-spirited.' Only by understanding this does one grasp the vituperation that Tom Daschle, Hillary Clinton, Ted Kennedy and others heap upon the Bush tax proposals." - Michael Novak

Only by understanding this does one grasp the vituperation that Sandy and Keith and others heap upon the Trump tax cut.

Or as, Cal Thomas once asked:
"Why does government require more of our money? Why can't they live within our means? Why do we allow government to get away with the fiction that everything it does is right and noble and true and if we resist paying for it, we are unholy and uncaring?
Why don't politicians ever ask us if we have enough money? Why don't they focus on the waste, fraud and abuse that so permeates government, no matter which party controls the White House and Congress?"

Essentially this is what Sandy implies - government use of money is right and noble and if we resist - or make it do with less - we are unholy and uncaring, and Jesus wouldn't approve of government having less money.
I'm Ed Thompson, and I approve this message.
User avatar
ET
 
Posts: 2805
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:20 pm
Location: Cordova, TN

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby KeithE » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:42 pm

ET wrote:
KeithE wrote:
ET wrote:Meanwhile, here in Memphis, a few weeks ago a little hometown corporation by the name of FedEx announced they would invest $1,000,000,000 - that's "billion" with a "b" - in their facilities here. Some pay actions were also announced. I'm guessing all this "fails the Jesus test". Employing more people, increasing the pay of others, generating economic activity.


Are you claiming this is due to the Trump/GOP tax cuts?? Truth is it is because Fed Ex has the opportunity (and is smartly - I think- betting on exploiting that) to deliver more packages due to changes in how we shop - online.

I am claiming that any given corporation that will have it's profits taxed at 21% instead of 35% has a lot more money to work with for whatever business goals they have. I have little doubt that FedEx and any other U.S. corporation that have announced various spending plans have done so because they expect to have greater income due to reduced taxes. Some actions may be new and due solely to tax rate changes, others may be accelerated and brought forward because a greater cash flow will exist.

If some of these companies repatriate overseas income, then we can have a discussion of whether taxing actual money at 21% is better than taxing no money at 35%.


Except that Fed Ex pays only 7.5% in federal taxes

Supposedly the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act did away with loopholes that allow such low taxes being paid. Truth is very few tax loopholes were close and those that were politically motivated (e.g tax deductions for state/local taxes which was aimed to punish people from high tax states like CA , NJ and NY who voted against the GOP). And many more loopholes were created. Read it.

Sure I get your point about some honest companies that do not already employ tax evasion tactics torch 21% taxes or lower will have more cash for investments. Even there, most are not investing but doing stock buybacks and bonuses to big shots. But if you think this will stimulate the economy, you have a long way to go to demonstrate that to me. Time will tell how stimulating these tax cuts will be.

Got to run.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8819
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Sandy » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:05 pm

ET wrote:Essentially this is what Sandy implies - government use of money is right and noble and if we resist - or make it do with less - we are unholy and uncaring, and Jesus wouldn't approve of government having less money.


Well, the Trump tax cut isn't making the government make do with less. And it has nothing to do with the government getting money, it has to do with an equitable distribution of the tax burden, which I believe is, at the very least, consistent with the principles Jesus taught. This is a take from everyone to make the rich richer scheme, and no, Jesus wouldn't approve.

I don't think the Bible prescribes a particular economic system, though if it did, it would have to resemble the only New Testament model that exists in which the church participated, in Acts. But you'll never hear either our government, nor very many conservative Christians ever advocate for sharing the wealth, to support the church and help it develop a social welfare system like the Jerusalem church, and many of the congregations of early Christianity, had.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8800
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby KeithE » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:31 pm

ET quoted Michale Novak:

"At some time during the 20th century, the Democratic Party came to believe that the state is not a fickle abuser of human liberty (as liberals once held); instead, the state could be an angel of good whose mission is to bring about the equality between rich and poor which dreamers have always dreamed about. The means: redistribution of income. For the Left, redistribution became a rod of judgment, separating wolves from sheep. Those in favor are noble, those opposed 'mean-spirited.' Only by understanding this does one grasp the vituperation that Tom Daschle, Hillary Clinton, Ted Kennedy and others heap upon the Bush tax proposals." - Michael Novak


No one is suggesting we should "bring about the equality between rich and poor which dreamers have always dreamed about”.

It is pretty bad when cons have to greatly exaggerate what their opponents are actually suggesting. This liberal wants to limit the ratio between the highest and lowest within any company to 100:1 (actually I’ll revise that to 50:1 - 4/21/18). (I get that a certain degree of incentive is a good thing). We existed quite well before 1988 with those ratios being less than 30:1. But in these days, the CEOs and their backscratching Board of Directors are not earning it by the inherent worth, but through their greed and power they latch onto to control wages. Do not try to tell me this is the free market at work - that ended with the demise of the labor union movement and the culture of executive power. I have worked around executives at SAIC and elsewhere (occasionally technical weenies get good offices). Believe me, they do not work any harder, and probably work less hours (on average). They may have 2:1 (overall average of non-execs) as much education in terms of years in school (many have MBAs) and maybe 4:1 (overall average) of work years. No where near even 10:1. let alone 300:1 as it is today.

Image

No one is suggesting total equality (1:1). Got that, ET. I do not think you are “mean-spirited”, just stuck in some ideology that no longer serves the common good (if it ever did).
Last edited by KeithE on Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8819
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Haruo » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:23 pm

Michael Novak is clearly a strong advocate of worker unionization.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12205
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:04 am

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I ran across an article yesterday that, while lengthy, has a great deal to say on the subject of this thread.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/17/magazine/how-liberty-university-built-a-billion-dollar-empire-online.html

I would be interested in your reflections.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7251
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby John Sneed » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:26 am

Dave,

I read the NYT article and it was exactly what I expected from the NYT, which has stopped objective journalism some time ago and has become a rah-rah newsletter for the Democratic Party. I have made no secret on this forum than I am a Liberty alumni (BSc '94) and I am proud to say so. When I went to Liberty, I was in the Air Force, stationed at Offutt AFB, Nebraska running the construction management section there. I took my courses, as mentioned in the article, by video tape. When you enrolled, you would receive a big box in the mail a few days later. It would have several video cassettes with all the course lectures on them. It would have the textbooks and the tests, which were in sealed envelopes that you were supposed to give to your proctor. The proctor had to be someone not related to you with a degree equal to, or higher, than the one you were pursuing. My proctor was my boss, the chief of the engineering branch on base civil engineering.

I have attended colleges in residence. At the community college level I took classes at Metropolitan Community College in Omaha. I attended at four year university at Weber State College (new University) in Ogden, Utah (were I was stationed, and also got married there). I have done graduate work in residence at Minot State University in Minot, North Dakota, when I was a pastor there. All this is to say that I know the difficulty of the coursework at a "brick and mortar" school. And I know the difficulty of course at online schools. Except for my associates degree from the Community College of the Air Force, all my accredited degrees were gained through distance education. When I went to Liberty the distance program was called the Liberty University School of Lifelong Learning (LUSLLL). I have never felt the coursework I did at Liberty was second place to any of my in-residence work. I have always been proud to be a Liberty alumni.

I picked Liberty because I wanted to be a pastor when I retired from the service. I needed to go to school online because I was in the Air Force at the time. I spent considerable time researching various schools, both accredited and non-accredited. In the end, I settled on two schools, Moody Bible Institute, which offered a BA in Biblical Studies, and Liberty. I chose Liberty because I was Baptist and Liberty had better name recognition among Baptists than Moody did.

For all the hoopla, Liberty is a solid school with an accreditation equal to the finest schools on the east coast. Foe the few who felt it was less than what they hoped for there are thousands who study hard and are proud to hang their Liberty diploma on the wall. Liberty has prepared me very well for my future education. Although I am older, I am in a PhD program right now in educational leadership focused on education reform. Yes, at an online school. I have been a lot of places and done a lot of things, and Liberty gave me a good foundation for everything that came after. The NYT doesn't like Liberty, I get that. But seriously, what did you expect from them?

I don't usually post long posts like this. I must be getting bolder as I get older. Thanks for listening (or reading) my rant.

John
John Sneed
 
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:25 am
Location: Springfield, Missouri

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby John Sneed » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:31 am

Keith,

America has always been the land of equal opportunity. But there are an increasing number of voices, right now mostly is academia but also sometimes in the political sphere, who are calling for the equality of outcome. As the political left is becoming more open and aggressive with their socialism, more and more are insisting that everyone has a right to the same things everyone else has, not opportunity, but outcome. You may need to rethink part of your reply to ET. Just saying.

John
John Sneed
 
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:25 am
Location: Springfield, Missouri

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby KeithE » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:23 pm

John Sneed wrote:Keith,

America has always been the land of equal opportunity. But there are an increasing number of voices, right now mostly is academia but also sometimes in the political sphere, who are calling for the equality of outcome. As the political left is becoming more open and aggressive with their socialism, more and more are insisting that everyone has a right to the same things everyone else has, not opportunity, but outcome. You may need to rethink part of your reply to ET. Just saying.

John


John,

Give me examples of calls for "equality of outcome" (wage-wise which is what we talking about). Again you and ET are fighting an imaginary foe.

I do know of suggestions calling for paying a monthly "basic income" floor to all citizens; but they are not saying that be people’s sole income - just a floor for basic living usually minimizing safety net programs. Nothing approaching a “equality of outcomes”.

Nixon almost enacted such a basic income program in 1970.

Finland is currently experimenting in a small subset of its population directed by its center-right Prime Minister Juha Sipilä.

Pros and Cons are discussed here.

But again this is no where near an “equality of outcome” program.

And in this country we are far from even “an equality of opportunity”. You cannot tell me young persons from the ghetto or Indian reservations have the same opportunity as in rich suburbs (true some from ghettos are succeeding but not in equal proportions). And we getting further from that with the de-emphasis on pubic schooling (DeVos’s goal). We already allow 99+% of estates to be given to heirs and the RW is fighting to eliminate estate taxes for those <1% ers with estates over $11.8M.. Thus opportunity is portioned out according to one's parental wealth. We would very quickly solve our national debt, if we simply asked for all estate money (not necessarily properties) be returned to governments partitioned among local/state and federal levels.

If you are looking for a biblical solution, we should try a Jubilee every 7 years.
Dt. 15:1-6 1"At the end of every seven-year period you shall have a relaxation of debts, 2which shall be observed as follows. Every creditor shall relax his claim on what he has loaned his neighbor; he must not press his neighbor, his kinsman, because a relaxation in honor of the LORD has been proclaimed. 3You may press a foreigner, but you shall relax the claim on your kinsman for what is yours. 4Nay, more! since the LORD, your God, will bless you abundantly in the land he will give you to occupy as your heritage, there should be no one of you in need. 5If you but heed the voice of the LORD, your God, and carefully observe all these commandments which I enjoin on you today, 6you will lend to many nations, and borrow from none; you will rule over many nations, and none will rule over you, since the LORD, your God, will bless you as he promised.

Underline mine - a noble and God directed goal, imo.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8819
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby KeithE » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:54 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:Getting back to the topic of this thread, I ran across an article yesterday that, while lengthy, has a great deal to say on the subject of this thread.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/17/magazine/how-liberty-university-built-a-billion-dollar-empire-online.html

I would be interested in your reflections.


Sorry for the diversions into economics/charity for the poor. It is the core of the differences between Falwell, Jr and Shane Claiborne.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8819
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby KeithE » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:05 pm

John Sneed wrote:Dave,

I read the NYT article and it was exactly what I expected from the NYT, which has stopped objective journalism some time ago and has become a rah-rah newsletter for the Democratic Party. I have made no secret on this forum than I am a Liberty alumni (BSc '94) and I am proud to say so. When I went to Liberty, I was in the Air Force, stationed at Offutt AFB, Nebraska running the construction management section there. I took my courses, as mentioned in the article, by video tape. When you enrolled, you would receive a big box in the mail a few days later. It would have several video cassettes with all the course lectures on them. It would have the textbooks and the tests, which were in sealed envelopes that you were supposed to give to your proctor. The proctor had to be someone not related to you with a degree equal to, or higher, than the one you were pursuing. My proctor was my boss, the chief of the engineering branch on base civil engineering.

I have attended colleges in residence. At the community college level I took classes at Metropolitan Community College in Omaha. I attended at four year university at Weber State College (new University) in Ogden, Utah (were I was stationed, and also got married there). I have done graduate work in residence at Minot State University in Minot, North Dakota, when I was a pastor there. All this is to say that I know the difficulty of the coursework at a "brick and mortar" school. And I know the difficulty of course at online schools. Except for my associates degree from the Community College of the Air Force, all my accredited degrees were gained through distance education. When I went to Liberty the distance program was called the Liberty University School of Lifelong Learning (LUSLLL). I have never felt the coursework I did at Liberty was second place to any of my in-residence work. I have always been proud to be a Liberty alumni.

I picked Liberty because I wanted to be a pastor when I retired from the service. I needed to go to school online because I was in the Air Force at the time. I spent considerable time researching various schools, both accredited and non-accredited. In the end, I settled on two schools, Moody Bible Institute, which offered a BA in Biblical Studies, and Liberty. I chose Liberty because I was Baptist and Liberty had better name recognition among Baptists than Moody did.

For all the hoopla, Liberty is a solid school with an accreditation equal to the finest schools on the east coast. Foe the few who felt it was less than what they hoped for there are thousands who study hard and are proud to hang their Liberty diploma on the wall. Liberty has prepared me very well for my future education. Although I am older, I am in a PhD program right now in educational leadership focused on education reform. Yes, at an online school. I have been a lot of places and done a lot of things, and Liberty gave me a good foundation for everything that came after. The NYT doesn't like Liberty, I get that. But seriously, what did you expect from them?

I don't usually post long posts like this. I must be getting bolder as I get older. Thanks for listening (or reading) my rant.

John


Thanks John, for your educational biography and your service to the country.

Now I read the NYT article as well and found no cheerleading for the Democratic Party as you indicated in red above. In fact I searched the article for “Democrat” and found nothing. Could you provide specifics, please? or perhaps recognize you have chip on your shoulder that you see when nothing is there?
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8819
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby John Sneed » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:15 pm

Keith,

Thanks for engaging me on the topic. I would be happy to respond, maybe in another thread devoted to the topic of opportunity and outcomes. Right now, I am supposed to be writing a paper on the Bologna Process of Higher Education Reform in Europe. So, be patient with me. But I think our topic is one worthy of a couple of posts (tasteful understatement). I agree with part of your post and will do more to support my contention about calls for equality of outcomes. Till then, be well.

John
John Sneed
 
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:25 am
Location: Springfield, Missouri

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby John Sneed » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:20 pm

Keith,

You are right to call me out on being more specific. My mention of the Democratic Party in the above post was aimed more at the NYT being more left leaning, and thus antagonistic to anything conservative, Including Liberty University. I was not trying to say that there was a specific mention of Democrats or the Democratic Party in the article itself. I appreciate the chance to clarify my thinking there. I will work to be more even-handed in future posts. Again, I appreciate you taking the time to engage my post and your kind words about my military time. I wish you well and look forward to our future conversations.

John
John Sneed
 
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:25 am
Location: Springfield, Missouri

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:14 pm

Actually, if you read the article carefully, you may have noted that it did not originate with the NYT at all but with a group, ProPublica This statement comes from their website, which also, by the way, does not mention Democrats anywhere.

https://www.propublica.org/about/
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7251
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby John Sneed » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:12 pm

Mea culpa Dave. Good call.

John
John Sneed
 
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:25 am
Location: Springfield, Missouri

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Sandy » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:24 pm

A little off the original topic, but this has been discussed before, and no evidence has been offered to support the statement that the New York Times is a "rah-rah newsletter for the Democratic Party." That's a standard accusation that comes out any time a mainstream media outlet fails to be a "rah-rah newsletter" favoring conservatives, and reports facts which are not always favorable to their image, but that's not an indicator of bias.

The facts, as reported, are that Shane Claiborne, with Red Letter Revival, offered to come to the campus of Liberty University and pray with Jerry Falwell Jr. while conducting services in Lynchburg. Falwell stated that if he came on campus, he would be arrested. I don't see anything "biased" about that, but I guess conservatives think it is biased to even report it.

I've got some conservative friends and colleagues who are prone to criticize the Times and the Washington Post. They'll bring up some conservative talking point about an event that has happened, and say "Well, you won't catch the New York Times or the Washington Post reporting about that." I'll google it, and while it isn't always the case, the majority of the time, the Times and the Post are the top two sources that come up with information on whatever they've been talking about.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8800
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:19 am

In reading the story John told us about his experience with Liberty U back in the 1990's, I realize he was having a different experience from what I am seeing now. The first difference is that, John, you actually got tapes from professors. Now most of the teaching of online courses is reported as being assigned to adjunct faculty, a less expensive alternative for schools. Second, I watched a young lady in one of the churches where I have served in interim. She was doing an MBA with the business school. What she had to do was to read a book, do worksheets on the book, write some possible solutions to proposed business problems, and take two exams, both open book. She had to have a proctor for the tests who had at least a masters degree, so I agreed to let her come to the church office and take the exams in a vacant office next to mine. She will soon have her MBA, but she will not have the skills to manage at a level appropriate to someone with an MBA because her only link to the adjunct faculty was through blackboard--post a note and someone will get back to you. No one screened her at all for her leadership ability or maturity to be in a graduate program. She is paying a lot of money for a degree that will never help her because there is no link in it to "real-world" experience. She is doing clerical work for a government agency. Her degree will not help her with the work she is doing nor give her the skills to rise, at least based on the course work that I saw.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7251
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:58 am

Dave,

That doesn't sound like it meets the standards for good online education! I know a lot of colleges and universities are doing online programs. But usually that at least involves watching lectures online and interacting online with the instructor.

You are certainly right about adjuncts. Most schools have far more adjuncts than full-time faculty. It is cheaper, there are no benefits, and if class sizes go up or down they just hire more adjuncts or let you go. Also, for many undergrad classes a Masters Degree is all that is required to teach.

While I've personally benefited from the adjunct setup, it means less and less students are hearing from someone with a PhD in their field. And, I also see a lot of shortcomings with movement to online class environments that won't be like your work place.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5937
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Haruo » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:35 pm

Surely there's an app for the parts of the job you weren't trained for.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12205
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:03 pm

Haruo wrote:Surely there's an app for the parts of the job you weren't trained for.


I wish, LOL
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5937
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

PreviousNext

Return to Baptist Faith & Practice Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests

cron