Moderator: Dave Roberts
Dave Roberts wrote:Sadly, what I am seeing from their online students is not a good fit for pastors. Most of them come out with good academic credentials and a fairly good knowledge of Bible and theology, at least from the Liberty perspective. What I am seeing as missing is the knowledge of how to work with people in a church. I have watched some who have come to my area, and there is no training they have received in basic care for people and working within the structure of the church to help it grow in kingdom causes. I wish this were only my perception, but I'm hearing it from others in the BGAV who are dealing with Liberty grads in churches. Indeed, some of those coming to be pastors have never been in a group setting or a classroom to get their degrees. While I realize that educational models are changing and economics are working against traditional theological education, I can't see us accepting a medical doctor who took all his or her courses online, and I think there are definite comparisons for ministry.
Haruo wrote:Jon, where are you teaching?
Haruo wrote:I figure if Liberty U gave us (i.e. the world) Landover Baptist Church, they're not all a bunch of dimwits. Not to say I condone all of their humor, and like SNL I don't think they've improved over the past 15 years or so.
JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: Dave have you observed Liberty Grads from both the online only program and those who have have
taken all of their undergrad work on campus at Liberty University, in Lynchburg? If so is there any difference?
Jon Estes wrote:Haruo wrote:Jon, where are you teaching?
I am an Adjunct Instructor for Liberty University Online, Rawlings School of Divinity.
In my 11th year.
I am certified for THEO 104 and EVAN 101 classes.
I’m contracted for 8 classes a year with options for summer classes.
JE Pettibone wrote:Jon Estes wrote:Haruo wrote:Jon, where are you teaching?
I am an Adjunct Instructor for Liberty University Online, Rawlings School of Divinity.
In my 11th year.
I am certified for THEO 104 and EVAN 101 classes.
I’m contracted for 8 classes a year with options for summer classes.
ED: For those not acquainted with Rawlings, http://blackchristiannews.com/2015/12/l ... lion-gift/
I favor a mentor approach myself, but I would add that I have seen both those who learned pastoring from a mentor and those who went to brick & mortar seminaries make the same kinds of mistakes.Dave Roberts wrote:My observations have been primarily with theology grads who have been online students. I watched one who self-destructed in the pastorate because he did not work with his church. He came in and told them what to do, and his collaboration skills were absent.
Rvaughn wrote:I favor a mentor approach myself, but I would add that I have seen both those who learned pastoring from a mentor and those who went to brick & mortar seminaries make the same kinds of mistakes.Dave Roberts wrote:My observations have been primarily with theology grads who have been online students. I watched one who self-destructed in the pastorate because he did not work with his church. He came in and told them what to do, and his collaboration skills were absent.
Tim Bonney wrote:Rvaughn wrote:I favor a mentor approach myself, but I would add that I have seen both those who learned pastoring from a mentor and those who went to brick & mortar seminaries make the same kinds of mistakes.Dave Roberts wrote:My observations have been primarily with theology grads who have been online students. I watched one who self-destructed in the pastorate because he did not work with his church. He came in and told them what to do, and his collaboration skills were absent.
My worry is when they have neither a classroom experience or a solid mentor relationship but simply end up in a church with nothing but their online learning. I didn’t learn to run a church in class. I learned it on the job working at a church. Academics aren’t a subsitute for practical experience.
Dave Roberts wrote:I have also encountered LU grads with a "bachelor in Bible" who say their degree is just as good as a seminary degree. Obviously, they have not put in the time.
Jon, I agree that some ministers do not do well. One of the things we are working with in CBF is having cohorts of those in their first ministerial placement who get continuing attention for mentoring and help with the issues that arise. Our son took part in one of those that he found quite valuable. Also, Peer Learning Groups can provide a place of support for new student. My point is that there has to be something.
I guess I'm more familiar with Liberty than most since I have been in VA since 1994, have had family in Lynchburg through the years, and know the Falwell story all the way back to the 1950's. Not all of it has been favorable. I have also had LU grads in churches, some among the finest people I have known, and a few who could sour you on anything coming off Liberty Mountain.
Jon Estes wrote:
The point came across as anti-online students. There are idiots among all grads of all school online or brick and mortar. You being in VA all this time will probably have more access to students from Liberty as many may have stayed in the region.
The “my undergrad degree is as good as...” came about when seminaries were producing many who were graduating with a liberal degree. We heard the same thing when I was at Criswell 37 years ago. At the time, it made sense.
Dave Roberts wrote:Let me go ahead and give you a bit of personal history. Two of my pastors gave me advice as a possible young minister that I do not hear much any more. It was the advice that on going to college not to get a degree in religion or biblical studies. Rev. Claxton Hall, who was a friend and mentor until his death in 2010, told me that I needed to know something about other things as well as the Bible. My college pastor, Dr. Wade Darby, stressed the same mantra. I left college with 9 hours in the religion department and six were required courses. My degree had a major in English with minors in history and German. Their concern was that concentrating too soon shut down the course of your learning. I gave the same advice to our son as he headed to college. I realize that liberal arts degrees are out of favor economically, but we in ministry need a wide range of learning, not just a trip through Bible and theology alone.
Timothy Bonney wrote:My worry is when they have neither a classroom experience or a solid mentor relationship but simply end up in a church with nothing but their online learning. I didn’t learn to run a church in class. I learned it on the job working at a church. Academics aren’t a subsitute for practical experience.
Jon Estes wrote:The “my undergrad degree is as good as...” came about when seminaries were producing many who were graduating with a liberal degree. We heard the same thing when I was at Criswell 37 years ago. At the time, it made sense.
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