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From Joseph Patrick... aka Gerry Milligan

Have evangelicals so destroyed their witness with their support of a thrice married, known adulterer, serial liar, racist who had his attorney pay off a porn star while his third wife was having a child? I guess those evangelicals who supported and still support him are not the ones witnessing to the lost.

What I am hearing in the question is based on responses like that of Franklin Graham who commended Trump this week as "a defender of Christianity." That kind of logic, IMHO, destroys the credibility of our witness. Jon, you offer a much more balanced statement of support--my President, but not the defender of my faith.

Jon,

Where in my post to you read that I do not support the office of POTUS? But when an individual's behavior is contrary to being an evangelical it makes witnessing more difficult. Not impossible (as witnessed by EBC,I's baptism record), but with a lot of barriers to overcome from the start. The acknowledged definition of an evangelical, " relating to, or being in agreement with the Christian gospel especially as it is presented in the four Gospels"

Well, Joseph, to the question you led off with, it is clear that Jim “listens" real funny.

I hope not too many are making political stance a condition of baptism or fellowship.

Bill Clinton's infidelities set the standard for poor Baptist witness.

Most churches do retail evangelism. Nothing works or hurts like personal relationships.

There is a great deal of nominal Christianity in the United States. Evangelicals were unable to obtain a patent.

I don't personally know any who give trump a pass. I know plenty who went trump because he was preferable to Hillary. As far as ordinary, retail church ministry goes, the disgust is with the whole political business. More churches eschew the whole business of politics that ever before, my anecdotal evidence shows.

ive never been a republican. There are a couple of dems I'd vote for.

What is objectionable is the routine, incessant moralizing by the mod/libs here. My theory is that such helps assuage them over the stunning loss of the 2016 election. Obama was The Anointed One in 2008. His was to be crowned in 2016. Then people voted.

The list of immoral presidents is rather long and includes some who are otherwise revered by republicans, democrats, libs, and cons. I don't think you to be less of a follower of Christ because you were an Obama supporter. I don't think Sandy to be less of a believer because he was a big Clinton fan. I don't think Keith less of a Christian because he liked Bernie.

Perhaps we could all ruminate on our own inconsistencies, they are abundant, rather than trouble ourselves with what we judge to be the moral hypocricies of others.

Gerry is troubled about the general Christian witness in our country with good reasons. Ministers of all sorts have steacily dropped in honesty and ethical standards. We're below day care providers but comfortably above mechanics and bankers. There are many reasons for this.

I'm betting that any of us are seen by those we have established personal relationships with, either deeply or casually, as having integrity and thereby haveing earned the right to bear Christian witness.

This was circulated yesterday. It certainly speaks to the topic of this thread.

I think I will put the Secular City and the Death of God high on my list of books to read (or reread) in my retirement, which begins in the middle of next week. They were books my dad lectured on at Waseda Hoshien in 1967-68.