Will anyone even listen?

Open discussion on general Baptist-related topics of interest to Baptists around the world.

Moderator: Dave Roberts

Will anyone even listen?

Postby Joseph Patrick » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:10 pm

From Joseph Patrick... aka Gerry Milligan

Have evangelicals so destroyed their witness with their support of a thrice married, known adulterer, serial liar, racist who had his attorney pay off a porn star while his third wife was having a child? I guess those evangelicals who supported and still support him are not the ones witnessing to the lost.
Joseph Patrick
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:53 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby KeithE » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:36 pm

Joseph Patrick wrote:From Joseph Patrick... aka Gerry Milligan

Have evangelicals so destroyed their witness with their support of a thrice married, known adulterer, serial liar, racist who had his attorney pay off a porn star while his third wife was having a child? I guess those evangelicals who supported and still support him are not the ones witnessing to the lost.

Obviously, “evangelicals” care more about politics than ethics/character. And the thing is the politics they espouse are not even close to Christ’s teaching (e.g. Matt 25:35-36).
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8819
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Joseph Patrick » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:52 pm

Jim wrote:
Joseph Patrick wrote:From Joseph Patrick... aka Gerry Milligan

Have evangelicals so destroyed their witness with their support of a thrice married, known adulterer, serial liar, racist who had his attorney pay off a porn star while his third wife was having a child? I guess those evangelicals who supported and still support him are not the ones witnessing to the lost.


Definition of evangelical (Merriam-Webster, 11th edition): marked by militant or crusading zeal: EVANGELISTIC. Apparently you are not evangelical; otherwise, you would not denounce them. So, what are you? Even the atheists try to take their message to the people, but you obviously have no interest in taking your message (whatever it might be) anywhere since to do so would require a certain militant/zeal, of which by your own admission of not being an evangelical you don't have. You couldn't be a Christian in the eyes of many since Christ as his last act told his followers to be zealous in spreading the gospel to the world. Are you perhaps an agnostic, something requiring little zeal, even to think of God, let alone obeying him. This country is secular, a sorta euphemism for agnosticism since little thought about God is necessary in sorta kissing him off. Agnostics don't have to be militant/zealous about anything except to say one may believe or not...who cares? An agnostic is defined as: one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. That sounds comfy. If you haven't tried it, give it a shot. If you can't be an evangelical, be a potted plant – so exciting and requiring no effort!


Jim, you almost make me laugh. You are so far off base it is almost unbelievable. You totally missed the aim of this post, but choose to call me names and accuse me of things of which you have no knowledge. But, often when people cannot cope with a subject, they erroneously attack. I do witness for Christ and would ask you if you do. Please read: "White Evangelicals, This is Why People Are Through With You" by John Pavlovitz in his blog, Stuff that Needs to be Said, Jan. 24, 2018.
Joseph Patrick
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:53 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Jon Estes » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:53 am

Joseph Patrick wrote:From Joseph Patrick... aka Gerry Milligan

Have evangelicals so destroyed their witness with their support of a thrice married, known adulterer, serial liar, racist who had his attorney pay off a porn star while his third wife was having a child? I guess those evangelicals who supported and still support him are not the ones witnessing to the lost.


Jon L. Estes... aka Jon L. Estes

Where is the sin line drawn for an Evangelical to be able to begin to support a President?

Both candidates had flaws... messed up lives... sins... Each of us made a choice to who we would support - nor not support. Each has our reasons.

Did you draw up a list of sins for the candidate you supported? Is that how you came to the decision of who to support? I doubt it.

I didn't vote for Trump but I support him as my President. If he does something I disagree with, I do not mind stating so. It doesn't withdraw my support... after all, he is my President.

I am trying to figure out how we baptized 20+ last year when I supported Trump.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 670
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:14 am

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:56 am

What I am hearing in the question is based on responses like that of Franklin Graham who commended Trump this week as "a defender of Christianity." That kind of logic, IMHO, destroys the credibility of our witness. Jon, you offer a much more balanced statement of support--my President, but not the defender of my faith.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7251
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Joseph Patrick » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:19 am

Jim wrote:
Joseph Patrick wrote:From Joseph Patrick... aka Gerry Milligan

Have evangelicals so destroyed their witness with their support of a thrice married, known adulterer, serial liar, racist who had his attorney pay off a porn star while his third wife was having a child? I guess those evangelicals who supported and still support him are not the ones witnessing to the lost.


Definition of evangelical (Merriam-Webster, 11th edition): marked by militant or crusading zeal: EVANGELISTIC. Apparently you are not evangelical; otherwise, you would not denounce them. So, what are you? Even the atheists try to take their message to the people, but you obviously have no interest in taking your message (whatever it might be) anywhere since to do so would require a certain militant/zeal, of which by your own admission of not being an evangelical you don't have. You couldn't be a Christian in the eyes of many since Christ as his last act told his followers to be zealous in spreading the gospel to the world. Are you perhaps an agnostic, something requiring little zeal, even to think of God, let alone obeying him. This country is secular, a sorta euphemism for agnosticism since little thought about God is necessary in sorta kissing him off. Agnostics don't have to be militant/zealous about anything except to say one may believe or not...who cares? An agnostic is defined as: one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. That sounds comfy. If you haven't tried it, give it a shot. If you can't be an evangelical, be a potted plant – so exciting and requiring no effort!


Jim, you put quite a spin on the 5th definition from Webster's. Here is the main definition " relating to, or being in agreement with the Christian gospel especially as it is presented in the four Gospels"
When Bill Clinton lied, no one died...
Joseph Patrick
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:53 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Joseph Patrick » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:23 am

Jon,

Where in my post to you read that I do not support the office of POTUS? But when an individual's behavior is contrary to being an evangelical it makes witnessing more difficult. Not impossible (as witnessed by EBC,I's baptism record), but with a lot of barriers to overcome from the start. The acknowledged definition of an evangelical, " relating to, or being in agreement with the Christian gospel especially as it is presented in the four Gospels"
Joseph Patrick
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:53 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Jim » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:56 am

Joseph Patrick wrote:
Jim wrote:
Joseph Patrick wrote:From Joseph Patrick... aka Gerry Milligan

Have evangelicals so destroyed their witness with their support of a thrice married, known adulterer, serial liar, racist who had his attorney pay off a porn star while his third wife was having a child? I guess those evangelicals who supported and still support him are not the ones witnessing to the lost.

But, often when people cannot cope with a subject, they erroneously attack.


I trust you see how oxymoronic/ironic those two statements are. You can't cope with the election of Trump or the Evangelicals so you condemn both in a silly little temper tantrum. I am almost laughing, though.
Jim
 
Posts: 3773
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky.

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Jim » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:06 am

Joseph Patrick wrote:
Jim wrote:
Joseph Patrick wrote:From Joseph Patrick... aka Gerry Milligan

Jim, you put quite a spin on the 5th definition from Webster's. Here is the main definition " relating to, or being in agreement with the Christian gospel especially as it is presented in the four Gospels"


Since you've firmly expressed that you are not an evil Evangelical, you do not believe in the gospel, according to that definition, or agree with it. Any idea what you do believe in? There are all kinds of other religious sects. Why not pick out one and give it a try? I AM an Evangelical, so I don't have any worry about what I believe or how or to whom I express it. Otherwise, take two aspirin and a nap, then stop watching CNN.
Jim
 
Posts: 3773
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky.

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby KeithE » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:04 pm

Well, Joseph, to the question you led off with, it is clear that Jim “listens" real funny.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8819
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:04 pm

Joseph Patrick wrote:Have evangelicals so destroyed their witness with their support of a thrice married, known adulterer, serial liar, racist who had his attorney pay off a porn star while his third wife was having a child?
Well, probably with some and not with others. It might be effected by what the lost being witnessed the lost being witnessed to think about Trump.
Joseph Patrick wrote:I guess those evangelicals who supported and still support him are not the ones witnessing to the lost.
Some do and some don't. Same goes for the anti-evangelicals who are anti-Trump.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Haruo » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:39 pm

I hope not too many are making political stance a condition of baptism or fellowship.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12205
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Jon Estes » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:39 am

Joseph Patrick wrote:Jon,

Where in my post to you read that I do not support the office of POTUS? But when an individual's behavior is contrary to being an evangelical it makes witnessing more difficult. Not impossible (as witnessed by EBC,I's baptism record), but with a lot of barriers to overcome from the start. The acknowledged definition of an evangelical, " relating to, or being in agreement with the Christian gospel especially as it is presented in the four Gospels"


Gerry -
My post, in context, drew to the point that...

1 - I did not vote for Trump
2 - I support the Office of the President
3 - I support the President
4 - I evangelize and have baptisms and changed lives to back it up.

Which completely goes against your statement...
Gerry - I guess those evangelicals who supported and still support him are not the ones witnessing to the lost.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 670
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:14 am

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:49 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Joseph Patrick wrote:Jon,

Where in my post to you read that I do not support the office of POTUS? But when an individual's behavior is contrary to being an evangelical it makes witnessing more difficult. Not impossible (as witnessed by EBC,I's baptism record), but with a lot of barriers to overcome from the start. The acknowledged definition of an evangelical, " relating to, or being in agreement with the Christian gospel especially as it is presented in the four Gospels"


Gerry -
My post, in context, drew to the point that...

1 - I did not vote for Trump
2 - I support the Office of the President
3 - I support the President
4 - I evangelize and have baptisms and changed lives to back it up.

Which completely goes against your statement...
Gerry - I guess those evangelicals who supported and still support him are not the ones witnessing to the lost.


Jon, for many of us, evangelism is a concern within our ministries. The question may be one that you do not have to contend with as do people in the US. For those of us who believe that the lifestyle of Christians is one of the strongest points of evangelism, the behaviors of the President being given a pass by Christian leaders is antithetical to the models of the Old Testament prophets who dared in the face of a king to say, "You are the man," is much more a model for speaking truth to power. It was likewise tjose in power who wanted Jesus off the scene. Behaviors of leaders have a great deal to do with how Christians are seen, especially when they continue to harp on Bill Clinton's infidelities and do not apply the same standard to 45.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7251
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby William Thornton » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:35 am

Bill Clinton's infidelities set the standard for poor Baptist witness.

Most churches do retail evangelism. Nothing works or hurts like personal relationships.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12049
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:23 am

There is a great deal of nominal Christianity in the United States. Evangelicals were unable to obtain a patent.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Joseph Patrick » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:25 am

William Thornton wrote:Bill Clinton's infidelities set the standard for poor Baptist witness.

Most churches do retail evangelism. Nothing works or hurts like personal relationships.


William, I often see evangelical republicans rail about Bill Clinton (and I do think his behavior was reprehensible), but those same evangelical republicans excusing our president's behavior. I know you said that you did not support him, but as a republican evangelical can you enlighten me as to how so many evangelical (spelled SBC) republicans saw Clinton's behavior as reprehensible while Trump gets a pass?
When Bill Clinton lied, no one died...
Joseph Patrick
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:53 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby William Thornton » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:26 am

I don't personally know any who give trump a pass. I know plenty who went trump because he was preferable to Hillary. As far as ordinary, retail church ministry goes, the disgust is with the whole political business. More churches eschew the whole business of politics that ever before, my anecdotal evidence shows.

ive never been a republican. There are a couple of dems I'd vote for.

What is objectionable is the routine, incessant moralizing by the mod/libs here. My theory is that such helps assuage them over the stunning loss of the 2016 election. Obama was The Anointed One in 2008. His was to be crowned in 2016. Then people voted.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12049
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:59 am

William Thornton wrote:I don't personally know any who give trump a pass. I know plenty who went trump because he was preferable to Hillary. As far as ordinary, retail church ministry goes, the disgust is with the whole political business. More churches eschew the whole business of politics that ever before, my anecdotal evidence shows.

ive never been a republican. There are a couple of dems I'd vote for.

What is objectionable is the routine, incessant moralizing by the mod/libs here. My theory is that such helps assuage them over the stunning loss of the 2016 election. Obama was The Anointed One in 2008. His was to be crowned in 2016. Then people voted.


William, I don't know anyone who thinks Obama was the anointed one in 2008. His Presidency accomplished more than was expected given the stated GOP goal of opposing anything he was for and now of undoing anything he might remotely get credited with, but his Presidency, I suspect, will not be judged as highly successful, but at least he wasn't paying off porn stars. If that had been Bill Clinton, the Senate would have voted to convict and remove from office. The double standard especially of 45's evangelical triumvirate of Graham, Jeffress, and Falwell, is showing that their moral judgment is subject first to their politics. The OT prophet Nathan is not their hero.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7251
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby William Thornton » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:34 am

The list of immoral presidents is rather long and includes some who are otherwise revered by republicans, democrats, libs, and cons. I don't think you to be less of a follower of Christ because you were an Obama supporter. I don't think Sandy to be less of a believer because he was a big Clinton fan. I don't think Keith less of a Christian because he liked Bernie.

Perhaps we could all ruminate on our own inconsistencies, they are abundant, rather than trouble ourselves with what we judge to be the moral hypocricies of others.

Gerry is troubled about the general Christian witness in our country with good reasons. Ministers of all sorts have steacily dropped in honesty and ethical standards. We're below day care providers but comfortably above mechanics and bankers. There are many reasons for this.

I'm betting that any of us are seen by those we have established personal relationships with, either deeply or casually, as having integrity and thereby haveing earned the right to bear Christian witness.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12049
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Sandy » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:28 am

Dave Roberts wrote:The double standard especially of 45's evangelical triumvirate of Graham, Jeffress, and Falwell, is showing that their moral judgment is subject first to their politics.


I don't recall ever hearing, "He's the commander in chief, not the pastor in chief" from any self-proclaimed Evangelical leader regarding Clinton.

This is about perception, nothing more. The image that most people have of Evangelicals comes from what they put out on the media empire that many of them have built, and on the high profile personalities who get themselves in front of TV cameras. There's already a general perception, due to some of the more eccentric personalities, that they are intellectual lightweights with their heads in the clouds who are easy marks for scams. Put that together with the obvious inconsistency of their support for a politician who is steeped in the stereotypical sinful lifestyle they abhor, in every way, and you can see why the perception is what it is. It doesn't appear that these people take their faith as seriously as they do their right wing politics. What credibility is there in their preaching?
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8800
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:07 am

This was circulated yesterday. It certainly speaks to the topic of this thread.
https://baptistnews.com/article/death-christianity-u-s/#.Wmyi9kxFycz
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7251
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:18 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:This was circulated yesterday. It certainly speaks to the topic of this thread.
https://baptistnews.com/article/death-christianity-u-s/#.Wmyi9kxFycz
I started ignoring de la Torre when he charged Jesus with being a racist.
William Thornton wrote:Perhaps we could all ruminate on our own inconsistencies, they are abundant, rather than trouble ourselves with what we judge to be the moral hypocricies of others.
Yes.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Haruo » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:25 pm

I think I will put the Secular City and the Death of God high on my list of books to read (or reread) in my retirement, which begins in the middle of next week. They were books my dad lectured on at Waseda Hoshien in 1967-68.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12205
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Will anyone even listen?

Postby Haruo » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:38 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
Joseph Patrick wrote:Have evangelicals so destroyed their witness with their support of a thrice married, known adulterer, serial liar, racist who had his attorney pay off a porn star while his third wife was having a child?
Well, probably with some and not with others. It might be effected by what the lost being witnessed the lost being witnessed to think about Trump.
Joseph Patrick wrote:I guess those evangelicals who supported and still support him are not the ones witnessing to the lost.
Some do and some don't. Same goes for the anti-evangelicals who are anti-Trump.
Amen. There's a whole lot of unhelpful lumping and labeling, and not a small amount of libeling, going on on both sides of this stuff.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12205
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Next

Return to Baptist Faith & Practice Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 5 guests