Bothered...

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Bothered...

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:35 am

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Re: Bothered...

Postby William Thornton » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:56 am

He can...so he does. Celebs need not be accountable to anyone. The most disqualified minister can get a following. Did an SBC church ordain him? If so, why hasn't that been revoked?
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:34 am

William Thornton wrote:He can...so he does. Celebs need not be accountable to anyone. The most disqualified minister can get a following. Did an SBC church ordain him? If so, why hasn't that been revoked?


Your comment is true but my being bothered is the testimony it gives to the other churches not being so boneheaded.

I am unsure of his ordination. The old church was SBC, I believe.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:58 am

One of the problems in our Baptist ordination practices is that there is no follow-up between the church and the one ordained and certainly no responsibility taken. For example, my home church ordained me in 1968. That was the last time I was a member there. I have not been invited back there to preach since my parents died in the 1990's, and I've only been invited twice in my entire ministry. Few people there know me or even know anything about me now. When I was a seminary student, I was aware that churches close to the campus tended to have several ordinations each spring before people went out to their places of service. I seriously doubt that those churches know anything about ordination.

As a pastor, I have received one request that a church I served revoke the ordination of someone the church had ordained thirty years earlier. When we asked the group requesting that we do this to send representatives to meet with our deacons to explain the situation and then we would meet with the person who had been ordained there, no one responded to our request, so I assume that person is still ordained (if still living). Since only the ordaining congregation can revoke an ordination, very few are ever lifted.

How should we better our system? I've often asked, but I don't know how to do it among autonomous churches.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Rvaughn » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:15 am

William Thornton wrote:Did an SBC church ordain him? If so, why hasn't that been revoked?
This is a good idea, but mostly a formality that no one pays attention to. We had a church call a former member of and ordained by our church, even with the recommendation that they not do so. I would not go over details with a single individual on the phone, but I offered to meet personally with the church to answer their questions. They disregarded that and called him anyway. He stayed about two weeks before they found out what they could have found out in a meeting beforehand. All that to say, I believe in revoking ordination when it is necessary, but many churches will never know or bother to follow up on it.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby William Thornton » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:22 pm

I don't know how to make ordination into something churches are more serious about. Some churches would ordain a ham sandwich. Revocation? Hen's teeth.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby JE Pettibone » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:07 pm

William Thornton wrote:I don't know how to make ordination into something churches are more serious about. Some churches would ordain a ham sandwich. Revocation? Hen's teeth.


Ed: ABC-USA has a mechanism for handling situations this type, by. involving the local association, the region and the the national office of the denomination in the original ordination process.

There was a time when the SBC and ABC-USA had a reciprocal agreement wherein they each accepted the ordination of pastors by the other w/o question at some point in time as the SBC takeover was underway ABC-USA initiated a process whereby individuals ordained by an SBC has to be formally recognized by the Local Association, region, and national office when requested by a local church.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:39 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: ABC-USA has a mechanism for handling situations this type, by. involving the local association, the region and the the national office of the denomination in the original ordination process.

There was a time when the SBC and ABC-USA had a reciprocal agreement wherein they each accepted the ordination of pastors by the other w/o question at some point in time as the SBC takeover was underway ABC-USA initiated a process whereby individuals ordained by an SBC has to be formally recognized by the Local Association, region, and national office when requested by a local church.


I doubt the SBC would ever adopt a system of ordination recognition like the ABC/USA uses. But I think it works really well in the ABC.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:22 am

I would hope this might be something that CBF will one day begin to address following some of the ABC model.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:24 am

JE Pettibone wrote:...ABC-USA initiated a process whereby individuals ordained by an SBC has to be formally recognized by the Local Association, region, and national office when requested by a local church.

1. Does this ABCUSA rule only apply to SBC? What about ordinations by churches in the Conservative Baptist Association, GARBC, and so forth?
2. What happens when an autonomous church doesn't bother to get formal recognition from the local association, region, and/or national office? Does the ABCUSA kick her out?
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:49 am

Dave Roberts wrote:I would hope this might be something that CBF will one day begin to address following some of the ABC model.


I could see it working for the CBF. I’m sure it would need to be modified to some extent. But it does help keep predators out of the system. If someone’s ABC recognition is removed for cause then all the ABC regions are informed of that. The ABC cannot remove ordination, since that is an associational and local church matter. But without the recognition, most ABC churches won’t interview the candidate.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby JE Pettibone » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:18 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
JE Pettibone wrote:...ABC-USA initiated a process whereby individuals ordained by an SBC has to be formally recognized by the Local Association, region, and national office when requested by a local church.

1. Does this ABCUSA rule only apply to SBC? What about ordinations by churches in the Conservative Baptist Association, GARBC, and so forth?
2. What happens when an autonomous church doesn't bother to get formal recognition from the local association, region, and/or national office? Does the ABCUSA kick her out?


Ed; In reply to your first question, the process is required of all individuals seeing to have their ordination by any entity other than a local ABC-USA recognized church, must go through the prescribed process spelled out in the Handbook of Ordination published by the region where the church is located. Their are I am told some slight variances from region to region. However Ordinations by ABC-USA churches are recognized across the board.

As for the second question. All ABC-USA Churches are autonomous. I an not clear as to what you are asking. If you are asking would the local church be kicked out of the ABC-USA if a they called a person who' had been ordained by a Baptist Church that is something other than ABC-USA, as their pastor. I would say probably not. In the first place any dismissal would not start with ABC-USA at the national level. I personalty would question why a local ABC church would not insist a candidate for pastor go through the recondition process. As I see it a significant part of a pastors duties include promoting denominational causes and polity.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:28 pm

Ed, to restate or clarify the last question -- basically, what are the repercussions to a local church that chooses to ignore this "reconditioning" process?
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:41 pm

Rvaughn wrote:Ed, to restate or clarify the last question -- basically, what are the repercussions to a local church that chooses to ignore this "reconditioning" process?


I’m not Ed. But my past ABC experience was that the only repercussions were that the church gets a potentially unqualified and un-vetted pastor. Or a pastor that doesn’t care about their ABC relationship, which can cause them problems down the road.

I know several ABC churches that have it in their Bylaws that they will only interview pastoral candidates who are ABC recognized. I always thought it was a wise policy. When I was ABC recognized the church could be sure that I’d had all my references checked, that I understood ABC history and polity and that the Region felt I was qualified. That saves a lot of headaches right off the top.

I honestly think the ABC has the best placement system among Baptists.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:16 pm

Sounds like part of the purpose is as much for the ABCUSA as for the church.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Haruo » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:01 am

In the ABC Yearbook there always used to be (it's been over a decade since I looked at one) pastors who were marked as "LO" (I think it was) meaning "local ordination" and as I understood it indicating that the ordination had not been recognized by the Association, Region or other ABC entity.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Haruo » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:03 am

And I'm pretty sure that in Evergreen anyway regional approval requires a certain level of seminary education (not sure if it has to be MDiv). But there's a big difference between an undereducated pastor and an underhanded one.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:43 am

Haruo wrote:...there's a big difference between an undereducated pastor and an underhanded one.
A very salient point, to which I would add that "not getting your education the way we think you ought" doesn't always translate to under-educated, either.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby JE Pettibone » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:27 pm

Rvaughn wrote:Sounds like part of the purpose is as much for the ABCUSA as for the church.


Ed: RL, the C in ABC-USA stands for Churches. While an M.Div. is the preferred minimum educational level in all regions each reagion does have alternative equivalents. IE, x years of Pastoral experience can be substituted for x years of seminary education. or some other alternative.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:47 pm

Rvaughn wrote:Sounds like part of the purpose is as much for the ABCUSA as for the church.


Well the purpose of the denomination is to be a resource to the local churches. As the denomination has been asked to recommend qualified candidates to local churches, they'd be foolish not to have some kind of system by which they decide on how to recommend people. It does benefit the local church and it does weed out some people who are not qualified to be pastor of an ABC church. If you want the good old boy network, you can go the SBC route. ;-)
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:12 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:
Rvaughn wrote:Sounds like part of the purpose is as much for the ABCUSA as for the church.

Ed: RL, the C in ABC-USA stands for Churches. While an M.Div. is the preferred minimum educational level in all regions each reagion does have alternative equivalents. IE, x years of Pastoral experience can be substituted for x years of seminary education. or some other alternative.

Tim Bonney wrote:Well the purpose of the denomination is to be a resource to the local churches. As the denomination has been asked to recommend qualified candidates to local churches, they'd be foolish not to have some kind of system by which they decide on how to recommend people. It does benefit the local church and it does weed out some people who are not qualified to be pastor of an ABC church. If you want the good old boy network, you can go the SBC route. ;-)

By saying this serves as a benefit for the ABCUSA, by that I particularly mean the effect of keeping churches in the ABCUSA. At the least church/association relationships are mutually beneficial, so a benefit to the association should not be unexpected -- though it is my opinion that after a long enough existence most auxiliaries to the churches are liable to go into a mode of self-preservation.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Haruo » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:49 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
Haruo wrote:...there's a big difference between an undereducated pastor and an underhanded one.
A very salient point, to which I would add that "not getting your education the way we think you ought" doesn't always translate to under-educated, either.

True enough, I mean, just look at me! ;)
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:07 pm

Rvaughn wrote: A very salient point, to which I would add that "not getting your education the way we think you ought" doesn't always translate to under-educated, either.


Agreed. A lot of denominations are working on recognition of equivalent education and what that means for ordination, placement, etc.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:09 pm

Rvaughn wrote: though it is my opinion that after a long enough existence most auxiliaries to the churches are liable to go into a mode of self-preservation.


Also agreed. Many local churches are having financial struggles and that translates to financial difficulties for denominations even in connectional churches.
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Re: Bothered...

Postby Sandy » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:52 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
William Thornton wrote:He can...so he does. Celebs need not be accountable to anyone. The most disqualified minister can get a following. Did an SBC church ordain him? If so, why hasn't that been revoked?


Your comment is true but my being bothered is the testimony it gives to the other churches not being so boneheaded.

I am unsure of his ordination. The old church was SBC, I believe.


The church from which he was let go for "unbiblical behaviors" was SBC. I didn't see anything that indicated the church he started is affiliated with a denomination, though I don't think it would matter. This is a multi-campus church with a lot of members and collects an awful lot of money. Within what has developed over time, he has a following who are more likely to be loyal to him, and less likely to look favorably upon church leadership. It's a good way to get a large following quickly, so there's no real dip in the paycheck.

The pastor's personal accountability as a pastor lies with the congregation. They register their support by the use of their feet. If he sets up a church where he calls the shots, and it's all about him, and people come, listen, and put money in the plate to pay the bills, there's no way to stop that. Probably people are coming to his church from the one he left, which is their choice, and their loss.
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