Pray for Charlottesville and our country

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Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:05 am

Yesterday, violence erupted in what is normally a quiet college town that gets little attention outside of basketball season. Under the guise of protesting the removal of a Robert E. Lee statue by the City of Charlottesville, a combination of white nationalists, neo-nazis, the KKK, and a number of other white supremacist groups gathered. There were long guns displayed under Virginia's open carry law, and protesters often wore helmets, some brought shields, and a number brought baseball bats or other clubs. Brass knuckles were also seen in the crowd. A 20-year-old from Ohio drove his Dodge Challenger at approximately 40 miles per hour into a group of counter protesters who were peacefully assembled on Market Street across from the park where the various alt-right groups were gathered. The young man murdered a woman crossing the street and attempted the murder of 19 others.

On this day, I hope that this racism will receive condemnation from every pulpit in Christ-honoring churches across the country. If racism has a place in this country, then Christ does not!

Ed Setzer offered one of the better statements in the past 24 hours.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2017/august/charlottesville-christ-and-your-church-how-pastors-might-re.html
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby Sandy » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:23 pm

Amen! Well said!
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby KeithE » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:02 am

This alt-right mindset probably represents as much as 10% of Americans which was enough to swing an election. The key “Unite the Right” stance is one of bigotry - they want ethnic homogeneity of America. That day is over and has been for over 100 years. Blaming their economic or social frustrations on Blacks, Hispanics, Jews, LBGTs, immigrants (legal and illegal), “elitist” Ivy Leaguers, etc. is what, imo, fuels this movement.

I’m not sure that Trump sympathizes with this movement’s core or just wants to have their voting block. I suspect both. Either way it is “deplorable” and his lack of explicitly condemning the alt-right (white supremacists, KKK, neo-Nazis, etc.) continues to reveal his true self. And I hope this will be seen by all Republicans who are not alt-right and will support removal of Bannon, Miller, Gorka from the White House staff. As it stands, the alt-right is bouyed by Trump’s defusion of condemnation (“many sides”).

As Stetzer's article (that Dave linked) says, clergy ought to decry such bigotry grown into violent hatred and they have - nearly 700 mostly clergy led “Candlelight vigils for Charottesville”.

I am not sure how we can change the alt-right mindset, but improving economics of the middle/lower classes would help (min wage increases, max wage setting, infrastructure stimulus to gibe jobs to construction trades) would help in the long term.
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:06 am

Ed: Keith wrote "I am not sure how we can change the alt-right mindset, but improving economics of the middle/lower classes would help (min wage increases, max wage setting, infrastructure stimulus to gibe jobs to construction trades) would help in the long term."

If you want to change their mindset you will need to make real effort at getting to know them. I have an idea that very few of them are shoe-less Hillbillies. I confess that I do not really know many of them and I would prefer not too but then I know I need too, if I want to see them change their minds. But then I ask change to what?
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:29 am

JE Pettibone wrote:If you want to change their mindset you will need to make real effort at getting to know them. I have an idea that very few of them are shoe-less Hillbillies. I confess that I do not really know many of them and I would prefer not too but then I know I need too, if I want to see them change their minds. But then I ask change to what?


The few I have met are so closed that I can't image how I'd change a white supremacists mind. I know it needs to be done. But I don't honestly know of any way to do that.

A strong message against hate was preached by our Associate Pastor. In two of our services I read a statement by our Bishop that she asked to be read in all Iowa UM churches. She was present in our middle service and read the statement herself.

Here is what Bishop Laurie Haller shared. http://www.iaumc.org/features/bishops-s ... le-9023957
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby Jim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:13 pm

KeithE wrote:

I am not sure how we can change the alt-right mindset, but improving economics of the middle/lower classes would help (min wage increases, max wage setting, infrastructure stimulus to gibe jobs to construction trades) would help in the long term.


Maybe your mindset needs a bit of changing. Had you thought of that? Maybe the A-Rs think you're a wingnut or at least an elitist UPPER CLASS (self-admitted millionaire...remember?) success story going somewhere to happen and far superior to all the deplorables. What a crock!
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby William Thornton » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:39 pm

If you want to make alt-right into a victim class this is a good start. There are racist supremacistsin our country. There are also bigots who excel at the broad smear. We would be better off without either.

How can you take a clear expression of evil and muddy it up? Let pontificating liberals engage it. Disgusting.

The handful of tiki-torch toting, blood and soil, straight line Nazi miscreants can be condemned more effectively without impugning another 33 million Americans.
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:07 pm

For a bit of clarity, we condemn Muslim terrorist who drive into a crowd as "terrorists," but I have yet to hear the driver of the car in Charlottesville condemned as a terrorist except by Attorney General Sessions. If we want moral clarity, use the same terms to describe the same evil acts.
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:11 pm

Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote:

I am not sure how we can change the alt-right mindset, but improving economics of the middle/lower classes would help (min wage increases, max wage setting, infrastructure stimulus to gibe jobs to construction trades) would help in the long term.


Maybe your mindset needs a bit of changing. Had you thought of that? Maybe the A-Rs think you're a wingnut or at least an elitist UPPER CLASS (self-admitted millionaire...remember?) success story going somewhere to happen and far superior to all the deplorables. What a crock!


Jim, if you want some moral clarity, read what the alt-right published today about the killing of Heather Heyer in Charlottesville. If your stomach doesn't turn and your moral compass swing, then your true north is gone. I apologize for the language, but this is how this evil group feels.

https://www.dailystormer.com/heather-heyer-woman-killed-in-road-rage-incident-was-a-fat-childless-32-year-old-slut/
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby KeithE » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:00 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:For a bit of clarity, we condemn Muslim terrorist who drive into a crowd as "terrorists," but I have yet to hear the driver of the car in Charlottesville condemned as a terrorist except by Attorney General Sessions. If we want moral clarity, use the same terms to describe the same evil acts.

Amen. Now I might take issue with the word “terrorist” in the true sense of the term. I think those driving cars into crowds are more just reacting in anger as opposed to calculated terror creation. I’d called them "angry political murderers".

But I using my own definitions.
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby KeithE » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:05 pm

Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote:

I am not sure how we can change the alt-right mindset, but improving economics of the middle/lower classes would help (min wage increases, max wage setting, infrastructure stimulus to gibe jobs to construction trades) would help in the long term.


Maybe your mindset needs a bit of changing. Had you thought of that? Maybe the A-Rs think you're a wingnut or at least an elitist UPPER CLASS (self-admitted millionaire...remember?) success story going somewhere to happen and far superior to all the deplorables. What a crock!


At least I'm a fairly wealthy family man who gives a lot (typically over 20% when working) and promotes more money ending up in the hands of the lower/middle classes. And my mindset towards others is not in the least race/nationality-based; I trust you can say the same.
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:26 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:
Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote:

I am not sure how we can change the alt-right mindset, but improving economics of the middle/lower classes would help (min wage increases, max wage setting, infrastructure stimulus to gibe jobs to construction trades) would help in the long term.


Maybe your mindset needs a bit of changing. Had you thought of that? Maybe the A-Rs think you're a wingnut or at least an elitist UPPER CLASS (self-admitted millionaire...remember?) success story going somewhere to happen and far superior to all the deplorables. What a crock!


Jim, if you want some moral clarity, read what the alt-right published today about the killing of Heather Heyer in Charlottesville. If your stomach doesn't turn and your moral compass swing, then your true north is gone. I apologize for the language, but this is how this evil group feels.

https://www.dailystormer.com/heather-heyer-woman-killed-in-road-rage-incident-was-a-fat-childless-32-year-old-slut/



Ed: And Dave as we know any nut with a computer can spout all sorts of trash and claim connection to whatever group they chose. I don't know
that I am acquainted with anyone who could be identified as a part of the Alt-right, although I have heard know some radical right wingers in a certain upstate NY restaurant expressing some nasty opinions of different groups and individuals, yet I have never heard them claim membership in any group. With the things they where saying they apparently wouldn't care who knew what group or groups they belong to.

YES some thing needs to be done to stop the resurgence and generation of new of hate groups of any stripe, however repeating and condemning it on an online forum does nothing to stop it. Now maybe those of us on this forum could start a fund to help the family of the woman who was killed sue the writer of the above statement for deformation of the deceased.
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby Sandy » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:50 pm

William Thornton wrote:How can you take a clear expression of evil and muddy it up? Let pontificating liberals engage it. Disgusting.


:lol: Not buying that.

Here's the bottom line. The alt-right is raising its head and claiming its turf because it is a product of the whole mix of right wing conservative politics with white Evangelicals. The left has the moral high ground here, because they have historically and consistently stood against this, and the conservatives have given tacit approval, winked, looked the other way and secretly hoped they would come out ahead in head to head conflict. The buffoon owns this too, with at least two up front and well known alt-righters on his White House staff. If it wasn't so disgusting, the attempts by conservatives to deflect, obfuscate and downplay all of this, and to try and disassociate the buffoon from it would be laughable. It took the buffoon 48 hours to come out with a soft-pedalled, pussy-footed semi-response worthy of a snake in the grass, not a leader. None of his evangelical sycophants has said anything.

If you can't condemn this clear expression of evil without taking a pot shot at the liberals who have been its most vocal and consistent opposition, then perhaps you don't think it is as evil and disgusting as they do.
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby William Thornton » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:22 am

Yeah oppose the alt-right by linking one of their hate rags. Brilliant.

Several case studies at work in this short thread.
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby KeithE » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:10 am

William Thornton wrote:Yeah oppose the alt-right by linking one of their hate rags. Brilliant.

Several case studies at work in this short thread.

Well I see that you are now defending Alt-Rights just like you have been defending Trump vs his critics (although of course you say you didn’t vote for him). No facts, no appeal to conscience. Brilliant.

What “case studies” do you have in mind?
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby William Thornton » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:27 am

KeithE wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Yeah oppose the alt-right by linking one of their hate rags. Brilliant.

Several case studies at work in this short thread.

Well I see that you are now defending Alt-Rights just like you have been defending Trump vs his critics (although of course you say you didn’t vote for him). No facts, no appeal to conscience. Brilliant.

What “case studies” do you have in mind?


I'd call you an idiot except for the fact that I know you are very intelligent individual who simply chooses to ignore plain statements at times. See if you can set aside your arrogance for a moment and understand why I say this. But have a nice cruise and pay close attention in Havana.

Since I didn't explain fully, presuming that anyone in tune would get the point, here's a redo:

Dave linked a racist, supremacist hate rag. That was not a brilliant way to oppose the same. He can either delete the link or, if he thinks the few folks here need further education on these things, leave it up. I think it unwise to give exposure to this crap.

Sandy offers a case study in lib pontificating, and I say that affectionately not harshly, as well as muddying up a clear example of authentic, supremacist hate.
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:34 am

JE Pettibone wrote:
Jim, if you want some moral clarity, read what the alt-right published today about the killing of Heather Heyer in Charlottesville. If your stomach doesn't turn and your moral compass swing, then your true north is gone. I apologize for the language, but this is how this evil group feels.

https://www.dailystormer.com/heather-heyer-woman-killed-in-road-rage-incident-was-a-fat-childless-32-year-old-slut/



Ed: And Dave as we know any nut with a computer can spout all sorts of trash and claim connection to whatever group they chose. I don't know
that I am acquainted with anyone who could be identified as a part of the Alt-right, although I have heard know some radical right wingers in a certain upstate NY restaurant expressing some nasty opinions of different groups and individuals, yet I have never heard them claim membership in any group. With the things they where saying they apparently wouldn't care who knew what group or groups they belong to. [/quote]

I wish this were a wing nut with a computer. The author is recognized as one of the organizers of the events in Charlottesville. He speaks for a far wider group than himself.
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:39 am

William Thornton wrote:
Dave linked a racist, supremacist hate rag. That was not a brilliant way to oppose the same. He can either delete the link or, if he thinks the few folks here need further education on these things, leave it up. I think it unwise to give exposure to this crap.


Sometimes to understand an enemy (or antichrist which I believe this is) we have to know the sickness and evil that is there. I realize that it is sickening, but I'm asking if Christians can afford not to know just how evil these people are. The Devil went down to Charlottesville Saturday under the guise of defending a statue.
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby Sandy » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:21 am

Is the objection to Dave's link really tied to the exposure it gives to the disgusting hate group, or is the objection tied to the fact that it allows people to see how closely linked the hate group is to Trump, and how much of their ideology he actually shares? Is it an attempt to keep the left from gaining the moral high ground for their consistent, universal opposition to white supremacy, the alt-right and everything associated with it, and from getting any political benefit out of it?

What I'm seeing, in facebook and social media posts, and all over the extremist right wing media, is a major scramble to create smokescreens and diversions to try to keep the crap they're slinging from sticking to the Donald. These are his core supporters, the philosophical and political center of his "base," and they are wearing their "Make America Great Again" caps and t-shirts as they push their hateful, satanic agenda. That's going to be a tough job, given all the approval signals he's sent to them, his very soft and muted, delayed response to the violence in Charlottesville, which they provoked and perpetrated, and the fact that he has two of their leaders on his White House staff. These are the Trump supporters that Hillary Clinton rightly called "deplorables", in the context of her remarks, the Alt-right was exactly whom she was referencing. And now, instead of simply speaking out and condemning it for the evil that it is, the extremist right wing media, and a whole host of evangelical leaders are pulling this crap, trying to equate "liberal" groups and actions with this same sort of thing, criticizing, maligning and impugning the character of those who have consistently taken a stand against this evil.

You're exactly on target, Dave. These people are antichrist, exactly as the Bible defines and describes the term, and being critical of those who are standing against them, and attempting to divert attention from the real issue by bad mouthing and name calling liberals who have the moral high ground on this issue is tacit approval at best. That kind of criticism makes it look like you are jealous of the morality being exhibited by the left.
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby William Thornton » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:38 am

Sorry, I think my lib friends are yet in an irrational frenzy. Dave thinks it helps something , someone, somewhere to link a Nazi rag. Sandy and keith aren't over the election. :brick:
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby Rvaughn » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:47 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:A 20-year-old from Ohio drove his Dodge Challenger at approximately 40 miles per hour into a group of counter protesters who were peacefully assembled on Market Street across from the park where the various alt-right groups were gathered. The young man murdered a woman crossing the street and attempted the murder of 19 others.
Just yesterday Kyle James Howard posted on SBCVoices "Black People Are Not Responsible for White Supremacy." He said, "Condemning white supremacy shouldn’t have to be wedded to the condemnation of black racism." He has a good point. The young man filled with hate who drove the car into people committed a heinous act of evil driven by racism. It is that young's man's fault, his sin, his hatred, not the responsibility of black people. He should be held accountable and pay for his crimes in this society, and I have no doubt he will stand before God in judgment. End of that story.

On the other hand I believe Brother Howard and others commenting there went too far in saying you must not say anything about anything else. The evil murder and injury by automobile was the worst incident of violence at Charlottesville, but it was not the onlyact of violence, and all the violence was not perpetrated by the Neo-Nazi, KKK wackos. There was violence among the counter-protesters as well. I see no reason that shouldn't also called out as wrong. It doesn't have to be either/or.

Dave Roberts wrote:For a bit of clarity, we condemn Muslim terrorist who drive into a crowd as "terrorists," but I have yet to hear the driver of the car in Charlottesville condemned as a terrorist except by Attorney General Sessions. If we want moral clarity, use the same terms to describe the same evil acts.
Though I'm not particularly keen in arguing over the terminology, I have no problem considering and calling this an act of terror. I heard several radio news outlets refer to it as "terrorism".
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby JE Pettibone » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:10 pm

William Thornton wrote:Sorry, I think my lib friends are yet in an irrational frenzy. Dave thinks it helps something , someone, somewhere to link a Nazi rag. Sandy and keith aren't over the election. :brick:


Ed: Oh but William, don't you see our lib friends here have the high ground because they LOVE every one even the "alt-right". :wink: :roll: :brick:

Truth is Trump won and they don't want him to have any success no matter how negatively their opposition affects the position of our country world wide.

Now thinking out loud if the "alt-right" is truly, only a band of evil despots, where are the "true-right". What is it that the evil folk are an alternative too ? In large part the liberals here have uniformly been critical of almost any thing to their right for years. The alt right now gives them a term to focus on although as used here it is quite it is quite nebulous, and defines "many many sides".

BTW, I haven't seen interest by the soft-hearted liberals in supporting Legal action against the rightest, who's defamatory comment about the woman fatally injured, that Dave linked. I wonder if they fear that doing so would put their interpretation of "Freedom of the Press" in jeopardy?
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby JE Pettibone » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:39 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:A 20-year-old from Ohio drove his Dodge Challenger at approximately 40 miles per hour into a group of counter protesters who were peacefully assembled on Market Street across from the park where the various alt-right groups were gathered. The young man murdered a woman crossing the street and attempted the murder of 19 others.
Just yesterday Kyle James Howard posted on SBCVoices "Black People Are Not Responsible for White Supremacy." He said, "Condemning white supremacy shouldn’t have to be wedded to the condemnation of black racism." He has a good point. The young man filled with hate who drove the car into people committed a heinous act of evil driven by racism. It is that young's man's fault, his sin, his hatred, not the responsibility of black people. He should be held accountable and pay for his crimes in this society, and I have no doubt he will stand before God in judgment. End of that story.

On the other hand I believe Brother Howard and others commenting there went too far in saying you must not say anything about anything else. The evil murder and injury by automobile was the worst incident of violence at Charlottesville, but it was not the onlyact of violence, and all the violence was not perpetrated by the Neo-Nazi, KKK wackos. There was violence among the counter-protesters as well. I see no reason that shouldn't also called out as wrong. It doesn't have to be either/or.

Dave Roberts wrote:For a bit of clarity, we condemn Muslim terrorist who drive into a crowd as "terrorists," but I have yet to hear the driver of the car in Charlottesville condemned as a terrorist except by Attorney General Sessions. If we want moral clarity, use the same terms to describe the same evil acts.
Though I'm not particularly keen in arguing over the terminology, I have no problem considering and calling this an act of terror. I heard several radio news outlets refer to it as "terrorism".


Dave and Rl. I have 3 real problems with what I have seen on TV and the rather quick condemnation of the young man from Ohio.

A. Why did a white supremacist elect to drive into a a predominantly white group assembled in the street.

B. Why have I seen only a clip of a Dodge Challenger going backwards at a high rate of speed ( this was played over and over on the Kansas City
stations Sunday evening.)

C. Why in a land of law are so many coming down on the side of instant judgement.

And R.L. I commend you for pointing out the fact that this was not the only act of violence in Charlottesville in recent days.
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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby William Thornton » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:46 pm

Ed and William allies? Give me some time to digest this. OK, I've got it: Ed has gotten wiser with age. :wink:

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Re: Pray for Charlottesville and our country

Postby Jim » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:31 pm

KeithE wrote:
Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote:

I am not sure how we can change the alt-right mindset, but improving economics of the middle/lower classes would help (min wage increases, max wage setting, infrastructure stimulus to gibe jobs to construction trades) would help in the long term.


Maybe your mindset needs a bit of changing. Had you thought of that? Maybe the A-Rs think you're a wingnut or at least an elitist UPPER CLASS (self-admitted millionaire...remember?) success story going somewhere to happen and far superior to all the deplorables. What a crock!


At least I'm a fairly wealthy family man who gives a lot (typically over 20% when working) and promotes more money ending up in the hands of the lower/middle classes. And my mindset towards others is not in the least race/nationality-based; I trust you can say the same.


Braggadocio: BRAGGART: empty boasting: arrogant pretension: COCKINESS. This defines Trump in most of his public moments. Obviously, you're above his level.

No, I can't say the same. My mindset clicks in on most things that happen precisely because it IS race/nationality-based. Yours does, too, but you're either ignorant of that or simply won't admit it. For instance, when there's a police-related shooting noted in the news, your first thought (my guess) has to do with the ethnicity of the subjects.
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