Notorious school of preaching

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Notorious school of preaching

Postby Sandy » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:34 pm

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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby William Thornton » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:16 am

I added a link" I can't get into WAPO without registering or subscribing.

The photo was dumb. SWBTS has apologized and even BP reported it all.

End of story other than how could these profs be so tone deaf to such things?
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:58 pm

William Thornton wrote:I added a link" I can't get into WAPO without registering or subscribing.

The photo was dumb. SWBTS has apologized and even BP reported it all.

End of story other than how could these profs be so tone deaf to such things?


That is exactly our problem in the South; we are tone deaf often. We want to get better in our relationships with African-Americans, but we just won't pay the price of getting involved with them. We welcome those who want to come into the SBC with their established churches, but we don't venture to worship in historic African-American churches.
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby Tim Bonney » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:56 am

William Thornton wrote:I added a link" I can't get into WAPO without registering or subscribing.

The photo was dumb. SWBTS has apologized and even BP reported it all.

End of story other than how could these profs be so tone deaf to such things?


Dumb. It proves that higher education doesn't always mean good judgment. Glad they apologized but, also hope they think about it seriously and the harm these kind of things do.
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby Jim » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:21 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
William Thornton wrote:I added a link" I can't get into WAPO without registering or subscribing.

The photo was dumb. SWBTS has apologized and even BP reported it all.

End of story other than how could these profs be so tone deaf to such things?


That is exactly our problem in the South; we are tone deaf often. We want to get better in our relationships with African-Americans, but we just won't pay the price of getting involved with them. We welcome those who want to come into the SBC with their established churches, but we don't venture to worship in historic African-American churches.


Sounds serious. Exactly what is the price that has to be paid in order to get involved with African Americans? And do they have to pay a price, too? If so, what would that be.
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby Sandy » Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:38 pm

Jim wrote:Sounds serious. Exactly what is the price that has to be paid in order to get involved with African Americans? And do they have to pay a price, too? If so, what would that be.


I think the African Americans have already paid more than would ever be required of anyone else.

The SBC has made a lot of progress in this particular area, including having elected an African American as convention president. For the first time since it was founded, African Americans feel that the atmosphere and culture is warm enough in the SBC to join, and to invest themselves in its ministry, particularly church planting. One of the only areas where the SBC is seeing any kind of increase in membership is among African American church planting areas in the large cities where they have targeted under-churched neighborhoods.

Here's what I would suggest. The SBC has had a long relationship with the National Baptist Convention, to the point of having a commission at one point to support a Bible college and seminary that helped train pastors. There are more SBC churches that are dually affiliated with National Baptists than any other denomination. So why not just merge? Yeah, there are some differences, though nothing that would require revamping the BFM. Come together, figure out how to share the things that they have in common, and merge the leadership into the new denominational structure. National Baptists already depend heavily on the six SBC seminaries for theological education, and they're already a big part of the church planting efforts. They are a major segment of Lifeway's business. Do some re-structuring, and let their leaders serve along side those in the SBC, as equals, not just in paternalistic partnerships.

When an African American becomes president of one of the seminaries, or the head of Lifeway, or the Executive Director of the International Mission Board, or when African Americans can be considered as candidates for pastorates of predominantly white churches, and vice-versa, then you can call that progress, and point to real racial reconciliation.
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:25 pm

I pastored a church a few years ago for which I arranged a pulpit exchange with the largest African-American Baptist Church in the area. When I informed the deacons, I immediately received the proverbial handslap and was informed that the church was not ready for "such a radical move." When that is the norm, race relations have a long way to go in Baptist life.
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby Sandy » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:15 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:I pastored a church a few years ago for which I arranged a pulpit exchange with the largest African-American Baptist Church in the area. When I informed the deacons, I immediately received the proverbial handslap and was informed that the church was not ready for "such a radical move." When that is the norm, race relations have a long way to go in Baptist life.


I'm a little surprised at that. Aren't you involved with CBF and the BGAV? I'd have hoped that moderate Baptists were a little further down the road in this regard.

I've been fortunate to have served in Baptist churches that were progressive in this regard. The last church I served on staff in Houston was a racially mixed congregation that had a lot of Latino and African American members. We had a Spanish speaking service, though the younger Latinos went to one of the English speaking services, and we shared our old sanctuary and educational space with an African American church plant that we eventually merged with when their pastor left. The key to that arrangement working was including everyone in church leadership. The older, white congregation that was left after years of decline realized that the church would die if it didn't grow, and if it were to grow, it had to reach the people around it, and it had to include them in church leadership. I missed the battle that took place when those decisions were made, and the members who left because of it, but a church which had dropped down to about 130 mostly older whites and could go two or three years without a baptism was running close to 400, and was baptizing an average of 30 people per year. Since leaving there, I've learned that churches like that are rare, and not just among Baptists.
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:38 am

Sandy wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:I pastored a church a few years ago for which I arranged a pulpit exchange with the largest African-American Baptist Church in the area. When I informed the deacons, I immediately received the proverbial handslap and was informed that the church was not ready for "such a radical move." When that is the norm, race relations have a long way to go in Baptist life.


I'm a little surprised at that. Aren't you involved with CBF and the BGAV? I'd have hoped that moderate Baptists were a little further down the road in this regard.

This was in a church with CBF roots. It may be a more regional thing. Back in the 1960's, I served a congregation in a military town that had an Anglo majority but with Black and Hispanic members. This was what I hope was an aberration. I think you will find in SBC, CBF, and most other groups that though race relations has come a long way, there are still barriers that some folks are not willing to cross. Organizationally, moderate Baptists have been more involved in racial reconciliation, but in small towns and rural areas, this is often still a struggle for churches. I pray the day will come when we no longer have the issue, but if we have to enumerate progress in terms of elected officials of the denomination, we are still struggling.
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby JE Pettibone » Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:24 am

Ed: And Sandy, CBF does not dictate to Churches what they may or may not do. However the CBF Church that we most often attend in Orlando not only welcome all all races, and includes them in all levels of participation, the minister of music is black.

Also Dave wrote
I pray the day will come when we no longer have the issue, but if we have to enumerate progress in terms of elected officials of the denomination, we are still struggling.


Ed: I believe this is a good goal however it does not assure a trickle down effect. American Baptist Churches-USA leadership is well integrated at the top but numbers of those churches are quite white.
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby KeithE » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:01 am

My 72 year old sister has been making quite a splash rapping as a substitute teacher in Huntsville (as she did as a teacher and DUI instructor in Florida)

Listen to a sampling at MC AC The Rap Lady. Each rap has a laudable message, imo.

She says she has not heard of any complaints from anyone in schools. However in ER Room of Huntsville Hospital that was different story. She was told that the ER staff is too busy to listen to that and escorted out before she finished. :lol: I’ve have tried to tell her that about doing raps for waiters own restaurants; but I have to say when she has done so, no one has ever complained and she has got applause from other customers and many stares. I play like the “embarrassed brother”.

Friday she had a “gig” (as she says) at a Gospel Sing near Nashville. https://vspotz.com/event/319598475056950. Have not heard how it went.

Could it be that the apparent ruckus over these seminary profs is overblown?
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby Jim » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:37 pm

The underlying theme of this thread, not surprisingly, is the desperate need to achieve racial integration (actually among blacks) in predominantly white churches, the obvious extension of the white religionist’s “plantation” mentality. The black folks are in churches they choose but they need to be in white churches for some reason and vice versa so that reconciliation, code for diversity, can be achieved. The fact that this is done already (black SBC president) through natural means is not good enough. There simply must be further orchestration of integration, especially in worship services, or the new god of diversity will be unsatisfied and the usual guilt trip (for whites only) advanced. Whether on the national or church/denominational scene, the election of a black to the top post is offered, for instance, as a sign of “togetherness,” notwithstanding that the election of a black to the presidency has resulted in the most profound black-white divisiveness in recent memory in this country. The thread reeks of reverse racism.
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby Haruo » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:15 pm

KeithE wrote:My 72 year old sister has been making quite a splash rapping as a substitute teacher in Huntsville (as she did as a teacher and DUI instructor in Florida)

What does a DUI instructor do? Teaching people how to Drive Under the Influence seems a waste of time in at least two ways to me.
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby Sandy » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:32 pm

The election of Fred Luter as the first African American president of the SBC was most definitely a mark of progress. It was the most significant event in the area of racial reconciliation to ever occur in the SBC. It was a beginning, not the final event after which congratulations can be offered and everything goes back to the way it was. Pastor Luter filled an elected role with some influence and power, but limited in terms of long-term impact on the denomination. African Americans have gathered in their own churches because they've never been welcomed in the white ones. Just accepting that as the way things are is antithetical to the gospel message. Getting to the point where an African American can be elected president of the SBC means that people have been thinking that what has been the status quo isn't Christian, and there are things that can be done. So take the next step. We have African American churches and white churches, and very few blended ones. So get together, within the denominational structure, and make that a starting point.

If there had been an African American professor in the school of preaching, the SBC and Southwestern Seminary wouldn't have to be apologizing for a tasteless photo. It's not reverse discrimination, it's putting things in order under the gospel.
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby KeithE » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:48 pm

Haruo wrote:
KeithE wrote:My 72 year old sister has been making quite a splash rapping as a substitute teacher in Huntsville (as she did as a teacher and DUI instructor in Florida)

What does a DUI instructor do? Teaching people how to Drive Under the Influence seems a waste of time in at least two ways to me.

:lol: What are the two ways? - lack of a uninterrupted buzz and danger to public?

When you get DUIs, most states send you to DUI school (not sure how she taught that but I know rapping was part of it).
Last edited by KeithE on Mon May 01, 2017 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon May 01, 2017 8:47 am

Sandy wrote:The election of Fred Luter as the first African American president of the SBC was most definitely a mark of progress. It was the most significant event in the area of racial reconciliation to ever occur in the SBC. It was a beginning, not the final event after which congratulations can be offered and everything goes back to the way it was. Pastor Luter filled an elected role with some influence and power, but limited in terms of long-term impact on the denomination. African Americans have gathered in their own churches because they've never been welcomed in the white ones. Just accepting that as the way things are is antithetical to the gospel message. Getting to the point where an African American can be elected president of the SBC means that people have been thinking that what has been the status quo isn't Christian, and there are things that can be done. So take the next step. We have African American churches and white churches, and very few blended ones. So get together, within the denominational structure, and make that a starting point.

If there had been an African American professor in the school of preaching, the SBC and Southwestern Seminary wouldn't have to be apologizing for a tasteless photo. It's not reverse discrimination, it's putting things in order under the gospel.


Ed: The real racial problem in the SBC Is the "S". However the rest of the South has taken greater strides in improving race relations than has the SBC . In Up State NY, out of 230 churches In the ABC/NYS Region I knew at least three Black Pastors of predominately white churches. During my last term on the Board of Missions the Bord President is Black and during my tenure we also had a president who is Puerto Rican. BTW there are three ABC regions in the state of New York.
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby William Thornton » Mon May 01, 2017 9:39 am

The gangsta stuff was an embarrassment to SWBTS. That's why they quickly apologized.

Considerable numbers of students are minority these days and a significant percentage of SBC churches are minority, some with dual affiliation. I doubt Ed or others would recognize the SBC in some urban and suburban associations.
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon May 01, 2017 12:42 pm

William Thornton wrote:The gangsta stuff was an embarrassment to SWBTS. That's why they quickly apologized.

Considerable numbers of students are minority these days and a significant percentage of SBC churches are minority, some with dual affiliation. I doubt Ed or others would recognize the SBC in some urban and suburban associations.


ED: William, CBF churches on this side of Orlando are non existent and SBC churces run the gamut, from store fronts in strip malls to HUGE Megas along with a number of independents. The congregants at all we have visited are mixed racially, with he largest minority, in older traditionally withe churches being hispanic

I am curious as to what you think would surprise me about SBC churches in urban or suburban churches. With the exception of one SBC country church where a friend of mine was Pastor, while we were in college, all of the SBC churches where I ever hekd membership were in urban areas. As a ministerial student at (Howard) now Samford in the 1950's, I did preach in both rural and urban churches of Alabama.
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Re: Notorious school of preaching

Postby Sandy » Mon May 01, 2017 12:51 pm

William Thornton wrote:The gangsta stuff was an embarrassment to SWBTS. That's why they quickly apologized.

Considerable numbers of students are minority these days and a significant percentage of SBC churches are minority, some with dual affiliation. I doubt Ed or others would recognize the SBC in some urban and suburban associations.


It has come a long way, even in the past couple of decades. I think there will be even more progress, down to the local church level, when more of those who are ethnic minorities are included as equals, not just tokens, in leadership and the denomination's institutional life. From experience I can tell you it made a tremendous amount of difference to the stability and growth of a local church to have the individuals in leadership reflect the racial and cultural diversity of the congregation. I got used to needing an English/Spanish translator in Deacon's meeting, and to being part of a racial minority in Deacon's and church council meetings where the majority of members were Hispanic, African American, Indian or Chinese. When the SBC has "arrived," in this regard, you'll see larger numbers of ethnic minorities on the executive committee, trustee boards and in seminary classrooms.
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