Our Theology Must Change?

[Dave Roberts]

I have been following this from my phone while I didn't have computer access. It seems that one of the hardest things for most of us is to admit how much mystery there is to the godhead and how very limited our knowledge really is. The old book by Rudolph Otto The Idea of the Holy kept coming back to the phrase "musterium tremendum et fascinans." That really seems one of the best theological statements we possess. God is the frightening mystery--that which we can never fully understand--yet that which draws us through the revelation that we encounter. George Ernest Wright also put the partial nature of revelation in his study God Who Acts. We in the 20th century tried to anchor our definitions of God. It is my hope that in the 21st century we will be more open to explore the mystery of God rather than defining attributes without recognizing that all theological knowledge is only by analogy.

[Tim Bonney]

BTW, speaking of bubbles, I think many people who grew up in one denomination and never visited elsewhere may live somewhat in a bubble.

I may have related this conversation, but I had a church member in conversation show surprise that Baptists still practice immersion baptism. She assumed this was an old fashioned practice from Baptist history that was likely long abandoned. I mean after all, dunking, so messy.

I've also run into Methodists who have no idea about the existence of Reformed/Calvinist theology other than casual exposure to Presbyterians whom (at least from the PCUSA) don't seem to be very strict about their Calvinism.

[Sandy]

[RyanHale]

[William Thornton]

What? The GBC was quoting CNN and MSNBC for some of their stuff?

I guess I'm not clear on what your church affiliation is.

[William Thornton]

Here's a piece that recognizes the "cushy" and uncritical treatment of campolo.



Zuckerberg is a major public figure. One would expect his change in religious views to be reported.

[KeithE]

[William Thornton]

[KeithE]

Back to original post.

I believe the Emergent Christian community will continue to change theologies (such as several moral influence theories of atonement, Open and Relational theologies/soteriologies, universalism of several varieties, and especially ecclesiologies). Notice the plurals.

Hierarchical church structures will decline. Orthopraxis will become more important than orthodoxy. Relationships will become more effectual than power enforcement / intimidation. Egalitarianism and tolerance will hopefully prevail - but I’m not sure of that last one.

The late Phyllis Tickle believes we are in a New Reformation period larger in scope than the Reformation (circa 500 years ago). Read .
Many more articles given at https://www.faithandleadership.com/feat ... eries-what’s-the-future-denominations
from Duke Divinity. You will have to copy and paste from “https" to “denominations”. I think the apostrophe in "what’s" destroys the URL link tool.

[Tim Bonney]

Keith, I'm all with you on orthodoxy/orthopraxy. I think the idea of church structure disappearing is a common congregationalist fantasy about something that is cyclical. If we all degenerate into independent congregations Christianity's strength will wain until it can start to build (or rebuild) new structures.

Phyllis Tickle points out in her book "The Great Emergence" that the Church goes through about a 400 year cycle of formation and reformation. We always start out as an unorganized spiritual movement that then organizes over time to be able to get the work of God done. Any human endeavor needs some structure. Then over the cycle the structure becomes too heavy and is pruned or reorganized again. But the need for good missional structure doesn't disappear.

The Church actually has tended to have its greatest influence during the period when we are moving from a disorganized spiritual movement to an organized body. It is during the time of new organization that there is the most energy for growth and evangelism.

Then the structure becomes too inflexible and the cycle starts all over again. But, the disintegration of structures into independent bodies isn't the growth time. It is the dissolution time.

You can see this cycle in the original formation of the Church, followed by the Protestant Reformation and the second step in a radical reformation that included Baptists and later Methodists reorganizing yet again when the Reformation Anglican Church failed to reform enough. You can see it in the Disciples of Christ that started as a non-denominational movement that morphed into a denomination.

[KeithE]

[Tim Bonney]

Thanks for the correction on the 400/500. I read that book some time ago. So I was going off my memory and study.

Yes, what I said reflects my take on Tickle's work. And you might have guessed that part of the reason I'm where I am is that I picked a Church with the polity I've come to agree with. My own take is that you can argue from the New Testament for either presbyterial or episcopal governance but it is a real stretch to find evidence of independent congregations who don't answer to anyone. Some Baptists even agree with that in that on some level at least in relationship to clergy in that American Baptists have regional oversight over clergy and General Baptists have a presbytery that oversees clergy.

[Sandy]

[RyanHale]

[RyanHale]

[William Thornton]

[Dave Roberts]

One corrective probably needs to be made. While Phyllis Tickle is claimed by some parts of the emergent church movement, she carefully differentiated herself from that using instead the term "emergence." For her, a consummate wordsmith, there was an important distinction to see "emergence" as less of an organized movement and more of a reformation--a natural "God-thing" rather than an organizational change.

[Tim Bonney]

[Dave Roberts]

[RyanHale]

[Stephen Fox]

Unless they are well versed in the thinking of Pulitzer's Marilynne Robinson, particularly her essay Memory in the collection the Givenness of Things.

And to a lesser extent Fisher Humphreys book on the Troubles in the SBC takeover.

I confess Im in a crunch and haven't read this thread to date. Snow is falling but my experience on this board is these chats are half cocked and no body is aware of Robinson.

Mohler is out to lunch with Russ Moore and they stay out there.

Will engage with more integrity soon.

[William Thornton]

You brought up the business of the GBMB using fake news and alt right stuff. One example would be helpful. Some people use Fox News as both of these. if your point was a throwaway one then I understand.

[Jim]

The notion that changing theologies in order to preserve mainline (dying) or conservative (stagnating) churches/denominations is a non-starter if in the process securing converts (saving souls) is a main consideration.  That there are theologies instead of a theology is a turn-off for many, so changing them simply compounds the problem (one mess for another) inducing disgust or laughter or distrust, the kind preserved for most other institutions/entities such as government or even a mother-in-law.  Opposing views in this forum prove the point, and prospects would not be interested in the theology, in the first place.  Most church members aren’t, either.  Actually, the theology-changers usually mean changing the PR of the church in a vain effort to compete with especially entertainment venues, thus the accent on turning what are billed as “worship services” into a rock concert or Saturday Night Live, with the silly emphasis on what sells to the immature, whether teens or up to 30-somethings.  This is not to disparage changing one’s personal theology, which can be the result of serious study and prayer.  I’m amazed at how much my personal approach to doctrines has changed over my many years but these changes do not involve PR, just my connection to God and as relative to serious discussions with others. Billions have been squandered in building everything from gymnasiums to state-of-the-art electronic broadcast systems in sanctuaries to seduce the public while concomitantly losing membership and dialing everything down to just “come as you are” (including ministers), treating worship with less tangible respect than accorded the everyday job. In the mix has been more than a generation totally unacquainted with the great music of the church, especially its congregational hymns.

A check of Mark 4:10, Luke 4:4 and Exodus 34:14 gets at the root of the problem. The key element is worship of God and absolutely nothing else. This is what people want, the necessarily abstract introduction to the “higher power,” but not without tangible evidence...something to hang onto that makes sense. This would seem to be what God wants, as well. Raised in the SBC and a full-time SBC-church employee during the entire decade of the 1960s, when the nation went off the rails and has stayed off, I finally took stock of what I had been taught and tried to teach, finding that much of it made no sense. I wrote down some conclusions regarding thorny subjects and published it, A Layman's Theology. In the process, my faith deepened as I realized the theologically wrought need not be the illogically wrought. For instance, I think God, of his own volition, does not know what I'll be doing tomorrow if I'm still here. The book is available on Amazon and Barnes/Noble or Lulu Press, though I don't expect any takers; however I'm attaching the preliminary pages and Foreward with the suggestion that the Foreward will provoke thought. This is not a commercial. As can be imagined, I've made no money from my writings. Getting back to the actual worship of God both personally and collectively without the extraneous mind-numbing PR and senseless activities will do more good than worrying about theologies. Actual worship will eventuate in attention to all other areas of existence.

[KeithE]

[Jim]

In a post above I mentioned a book, A Layman's Theology, and attached a piece of it. Rummaging through my hard-drive, I found the manuscript in book form and am attaching it in the remote possibility anyone would be interested in it, though someone might be interested in a particular subject. If so, check the Table of Contents for the page number, and anyone is welcome to read any or all of the ramblings of a heretic...or just a seeker.