A Wind-up Jesus

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A Wind-up Jesus

Postby Sandy » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:33 am

https://baptistnews.com/article/a-wind- ... GZ9IE0iyP_

I think this needs a little more attention that it is going to get where it is currently buried.
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Re: A Wind-up Jesus

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:45 am

Glad you liked it but over time it woulda gotten proper oxygen where I first put it in the History section. I think it is great history and poignant at many terms one of which is how a mainstreamer owned his poor cracker Baptist community roots after career aspirations at Wake Forest; and I think another proper interpretation how Will Campbell challenged at every turn the pervasive racism of the founders of the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC, notably Pressler, Helms and Albert Lee Smith.

I am well aware Bill Leonard does not name those folks in this article, but he has in other places.

Campbell recognizing a character like Trump could be what political fundamentalism was leading to, this article is a strong one indeed.
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Re: A Wind-up Jesus

Postby William Thornton » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:06 am

Red meat for the theological liberals who are nursing their wounds (or therapeutically modeling play doh) from Hillary's stunning and inexcusable loss to the most flawed presidential candidate in my lifetime. Evangelicals voted for Trump in large numbers for much the same reasons that beer drinking downsized former factory workers did. Hil didn't attempt to persuade these voters.

That said, i agree with Leonard to some degree but Theological mod/libs don't have a corner on the non-wind up Jesus and many come near to eschewing Jesus as anything but a prop for political and policy goals if not altogether.

One thing looks certain: we've buried the preference for the candidate who models family values. Maybe we can get around to a preference for our constitution.
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Re: A Wind-up Jesus

Postby Sandy » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:35 pm

William Thornton wrote:One thing looks certain: we've buried the preference for the candidate who models family values. Maybe we can get around to a preference for our constitution.


With white Evangelical support for Trump at 81%, it was a complete sell-out of any semblance of Christian values whatsoever, not just a lost "preference" for a candidate who "models family values. Good luck getting any preference for the constitution from a man who verbally displayed complete and total ignorance of its provisions during his campaign.

As more information comes out, it is apparent that the suppressed turnout which is largely responsible for Hillary's electoral college loss is due to the presence of an anti-Clinton faction within the FBI with a director willing to break the rules to use its influence to sway the electoon, and illegal hacking that included dumps of fake documents by a foreign government to create a false impression of the Democratic National Committee. That bump under Trump's suit coat is the hand of Vladimir Putin. I hope those who are either happy with, or willing to live with the results of this debacle know how to speak Russian. That's a sacrifice of patriotism and loyalty to country in exchange for a temporary political advantage, a "win at all costs" mentality. The costs will be gigantic.
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Thornton and the Constitution

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:03 pm

I hope William cares enough about the Constitution to find the Conservative Norm Ornstein on Constitutional extremism in his most significant book on the current malaise--its not Obama and Hillary, its the tea Party--Its Worse than it Looks.
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Re: A Wind-up Jesus

Postby William Thornton » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:13 pm

Sandy wrote:
William Thornton wrote:One thing looks certain: we've buried the preference for the candidate who models family values. Maybe we can get around to a preference for our constitution.


With white Evangelical support for Trump at 81%, it was a complete sell-out of any semblance of Christian values whatsoever, not just a lost "preference" for a candidate who "models family values. Good luck getting any preference for the constitution from a man who verbally displayed complete and total ignorance of its provisions during his campaign.

As more information comes out, it is apparent that the suppressed turnout which is largely responsible for Hillary's electoral college loss is due to the presence of an anti-Clinton faction within the FBI with a director willing to break the rules to use its influence to sway the electoon, and illegal hacking that included dumps of fake documents by a foreign government to create a false impression of the Democratic National Committee. That bump under Trump's suit coat is the hand of Vladimir Putin. I hope those who are either happy with, or willing to live with the results of this debacle know how to speak Russian. That's a sacrifice of patriotism and loyalty to country in exchange for a temporary political advantage, a "win at all costs" mentality. The costs will be gigantic.


You guys are still whining about the vote? Get a better candidate next time.
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Re: A Wind-up Jesus

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:21 pm

William Thornton wrote:
Sandy wrote:
William Thornton wrote:One thing looks certain: we've buried the preference for the candidate who models family values. Maybe we can get around to a preference for our constitution.


With white Evangelical support for Trump at 81%, it was a complete sell-out of any semblance of Christian values whatsoever, not just a lost "preference" for a candidate who "models family values. Good luck getting any preference for the constitution from a man who verbally displayed complete and total ignorance of its provisions during his campaign.

As more information comes out, it is apparent that the suppressed turnout which is largely responsible for Hillary's electoral college loss is due to the presence of an anti-Clinton faction within the FBI with a director willing to break the rules to use its influence to sway the electoon, and illegal hacking that included dumps of fake documents by a foreign government to create a false impression of the Democratic National Committee. That bump under Trump's suit coat is the hand of Vladimir Putin. I hope those who are either happy with, or willing to live with the results of this debacle know how to speak Russian. That's a sacrifice of patriotism and loyalty to country in exchange for a temporary political advantage, a "win at all costs" mentality. The costs will be gigantic.


You guys are still whining about the vote? Get a better candidate next time.


Though I wish him well, my fears are that Trump will make a mess, especially of foreign policy and may even get us into another useless war in which someone's sons and daughters will again be cannon fodder for our directionless Middle East policy. We really don't seem to have accomplished much in the Middle East since the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.
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Re: A Wind-up Jesus

Postby Jim » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:50 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:Glad you liked it but over time it woulda gotten proper oxygen where I first put it in the History section. I think it is great history and poignant at many terms one of which is how a mainstreamer owned his poor cracker Baptist community roots after career aspirations at Wake Forest; and I think another proper interpretation how Will Campbell challenged at every turn the pervasive racism of the founders of the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC, notably Pressler, Helms and Albert Lee Smith.

I am well aware Bill Leonard does not name those folks in this article, but he has in other places.

Campbell recognizing a character like Trump could be what political fundamentalism was leading to, this article is a strong one indeed.

Leonard's credibility went down the drain when he threw in with Carter, Dunn and Bill Clinton (the family values guy) in Atlanta in 2008 probably in hopes of jump-starting their very own denomination, maybe along the lines of the Alliance. The most stupid and disgraceful mistake in foreign policy in this century was the invasion of Libya carried out by Hillary and Barack – seven months of hell for innocent Libyans, not to mention the Benghazi Massacre and the stupendous LIE they manufactured about it. We still don't know where our president was on that fateful night but he made sure to be in the situation room when old Osama bought it right in the barracks almost of the main Pakistani military academy, from where not one trooper appeared and from where not one shot was fired in a sovereign nation also attacked for 40 long minutes amidst enough noise to wake the whole countryside. Helicopters don't crash quietly. Can Trump or anyone else match that kind of imbecility...insensitivity?
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Re: A Wind-up Jesus

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:54 pm

William Thornton wrote:You guys are still whining about the vote? Get a better candidate next time.


LOL, I can just as easily say the same thing. To avoid Hillary the GOP chose Trump. Congratulations. But that isn't saying much.
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Re: A Wind-up Jesus

Postby Sandy » Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:15 am

It's hard to get away from the political element of a discussion like this.

Yeah, Jim, there are a lot of things about Bill Leonard that leave him open to criticism, though in your unrelated and disconnected rant, you didn't point to anything specific regarding Leonard, aside from the fact that your entire rant is a fantasy without a single credible, supportable fact.

It's hard for Christian leaders to admit they've failed. I know many of the moderate Baptist leaders like Leonard are very frustrated with the way things turned out, not only in the SBC, but with their own initiatives that have struggled to survive and gather resources. Leonard did an excellent job of analyzing the SBC during and after the conservative resurgence in God's Last and Only Hope, but like most Moderate Baptist leaders, they over-estimated the inclination of Baptists to look at principle, and underestimated the influence of conservative evangelical media personalities who weren't Southern Baptists on the thinking of the people in the pews. Once there was a clear separation, they leaned a little too far to the left theologically and socially, and got caught between positions on social issues.

Leonard nailed this.

There's going to be a lot of fallout from the complete abandonment of values and principles required for the level of Evangelical support for Trump. It's already happening. People are going to seek a real church instead of a political action committee, or a collection plate for already fabulously rich "preachers" and "leaders." This could be an opportunity, for both moderate Baptists, and for declining mainline denominations, if they want it. If you took the name of the author off of this piece, and eliminated the pre-disposed bias like Jim's post characterizes, you'd find few Christians who would disagree with Leonard's thesis.

BTW, the Mormons are already positioning themselves to avoid fallout from support for Trump. At least one of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir members resigned rather than participate in the inauguration, and there's a petition that thousands of church members are signing to ask church authorities to cancel the choir's appearance.
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Interesting news about the Mormons

Postby Stephen Fox » Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:21 pm

Ive had friendly chat with the two year missionaries of LDS male and female whove come through NE Bama over the last 15 years. They know how savvy most Hispanics which is a big target of their outreach; know how savvy they are about immigration reform and now Trump. I have the sense that like Russell Moore they wince at the reverberations of this Trump disaster.

In Bama, Trump has the Rick and Bubba and Yellowhammer News Babbdists, but lot of the 86 percent are lukewarm at best re Trump "values". So its fluid for sure. Even the local boy who did good in DC staffing Alliance Defending Freedom was a Never trumper though he probably voted "against" Hillary who he considers a baby killer Nov 8, as did the local preacher and his wife.
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Re: A Wind-up Jesus

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun Jan 01, 2017 6:49 am

Jim wrote:
Stephen Fox wrote:Glad you liked it but over time it woulda gotten proper oxygen where I first put it in the History section. I think it is great history and poignant at many terms one of which is how a mainstreamer owned his poor cracker Baptist community roots after career aspirations at Wake Forest; and I think another proper interpretation how Will Campbell challenged at every turn the pervasive racism of the founders of the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC, notably Pressler, Helms and Albert Lee Smith.

I am well aware Bill Leonard does not name those folks in this article, but he has in other places.

Campbell recognizing a character like Trump could be what political fundamentalism was leading to, this article is a strong one indeed.

Leonard's credibility went down the drain when he threw in with Carter, Dunn and Bill Clinton (the family values guy) in Atlanta in 2008 probably in hopes of jump-starting their very own denomination, maybe along the lines of the Alliance. The most stupid and disgraceful mistake in foreign policy in this century was the invasion of Libya carried out by Hillary and Barack – seven months of hell for innocent Libyans, not to mention the Benghazi Massacre and the stupendous LIE they manufactured about it. We still don't know where our president was on that fateful night but he made sure to be in the situation room when old Osama bought it right in the barracks almost of the main Pakistani military academy, from where not one trooper appeared and from where not one shot was fired in a sovereign nation also attacked for 40 long minutes amidst enough noise to wake the whole countryside. Helicopters don't crash quietly. Can Trump or anyone else match that kind of imbecility...insensitivity?


Jim, it's strange how you keep mentioning Benghazi and never mention 241 Marines killed in Beirut.
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Re: A Wind-up Jesus

Postby Jim » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:08 am

Dave Roberts wrote:Jim, it's strange how you keep mentioning Benghazi and never mention 241 Marines killed in Beirut.


The Marines were on a peace-keeping mission in Beirut in conjunction with forces from France, Italy and Britain, not engaged in an attack on Lebanon or anyone else unlike Obama’s unprovoked, unlawful and un-Constitutional attack on Libya, a sovereign nation, in which the estimates of dead Libyans in 2011 was 30,000 to 100,000, many if not most killed by U.S. bombs, missiles and other weapons sent to the “proper” insurgents.  Check the many sources.  A negligent commander in Beirut did not condemn Reagan but an either stupid or vengeful commander-in-chief set decent U.S. forces against women and children in Libya.  Comparing apples with oranges is always a bit off the wall if not downright deceitful. The needless bloodshed on Obama's hands still drips in that benighted country and will continue for a long time, the most significant element of his “legacy” and a permanent disgrace to U.S. history.

It's hard to believe you want to play the blame-game but so be it. Wars instigated or conducted by democrat administrations in modern times and the American GIs who were sacrificed, not to mention the thousands more who were wounded:
Jefferson Davis - Civil War - 625,000
Woodrow Wilson - WWI - 116,516
FDR/Truman - WWII - 405,399
Truman - Korea - 36,516
Kennedy/Johnson - Vietnam - 58,209
Bubba Clinton - Somalia/Bosnia - 55
Total 1,241,695

You're welcome to check vis-a-vis republican administrations for Grenada, Panama, Persian Gulf and find the figures less than miniscule by comparison. Afghanistan/Iraq deaths are just under 7,000 over 15 years and are shared by Bush 43 and Obama, so divide them any way you like. Demos responsible for about 99.3%; repubs about .7% overall. If you want to gnash your teeth about Beirut, remember these figures.

 
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Re: A Wind-up Jesus

Postby Haruo » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:29 am

Yeah, I'll mostly side with Jim on this one, though I think WWII probably doesn't belong there. Not that the number is wrong, but I can't quite picture how a GOP administration would have handled the situation without similar results.
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Re: A Wind-up Jesus

Postby KeithE » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:14 am

Haruo wrote:Yeah, I'll mostly side with Jim on this one, though I think WWII probably doesn't belong there. Not that the number is wrong, but I can't quite picture how a GOP administration would have handled the situation without similar results.

I think Jim and Dave are talking past each other.

Dave is comparing the embassy attacks (Beirut vs the Benghazi) while Jim is comparing deaths in American wars.

Dave is right that the partisan political reaction to the embassies ambushes is way off balance - Beirut was far bigger in terms of deaths. And Beirut involved arguably more negligence on the Reagan administration’s part than the Obama's administration (turned into Hillary's) negligence. That smelled of political demagoguery - that worked. The RW attack team is rabid and out of control.

But Jim is right in that Obama has largely been given a pass on the Libyan War (really about regime change). Read about that here.

I do not argue much with Jim’s rant (some rants are right) that the Libyan War of 2011 was
Obama’s unprovoked, unlawful and un-Constitutional attack on Libya, a sovereign nation,
, although it was provoked by anti-Gaddafi rebels in Libya and Obama's choice to side with them.

But Jim where did you get the figure of 30,000 o 100,000 deaths? This says death estimates range from 1000 to 30,000 by 2011 when fighting cease for awhile. The renewed and ongoing Libyan War of 2014 has resulted in about 4000 deaths. Just asking.
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Re: A Wind-up Jesus

Postby Haruo » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:45 am

The United States has done so much, in our role as successor to imperial Rome, of the sort of stuff (only more lethally) that the Russians appear to have just done to us, i.e. manipulating or imposing "democratic outcomes" in the regime change business, that I've sort of lost count. The second in command here among usa Seattle Esperantists is a guy from Chile. One thing I've learned from him is the date on which we overthrew their elected government. September 11. Different perspective. And no, they do not look back fondly on our imposition of Pinochet's fascism.
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Re: A Wind-up Jesus

Postby KeithE » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:54 am

Haruo wrote:The United States has done so much, in our role as successor to imperial Rome, of the sort of stuff (only more lethally) that the Russians appear to have just done to us, i.e. manipulating or imposing "democratic outcomes" in the regime change business, that I've sort of lost count. The second in command here among usa Seattle Esperantists is a guy from Chile. One thing I've learned from him is the date on which we overthrew their elected government. September 11. Different perspective. And no, they do not look back fondly on our imposition of Pinochet's fascism.

So true.
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Re: A Wind-up Jesus

Postby Jim » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:59 am

KeithE wrote:I think Jim and Dave are talking past each other.

Dave is comparing the embassy attacks (Beirut vs the Benghazi) while Jim is comparing deaths in American wars.

Dave is right that the partisan political reaction to the embassies ambushes is way off balance - Beirut was far bigger in terms of deaths. And Beirut involved arguably more negligence on the Reagan administration’s part than the Obama's administration (turned into Hillary's) negligence. That smelled of political demagoguery - that worked. The RW attack team is rabid and out of control.

But Jim is right in that Obama has largely been given a pass on the Libyan War (really about regime change). Read about that here.



I don’t believe an embassy was involved in Beirut. The attack was on a Marine barracks that was ill-located and ill-guarded. A French barracks with some 60-70 French soldiers killed, if memory serves, was attacked at the same time (courtesy of Hezbollah). There’s no talking past each other involved, merely the comparison (not instigated by me) of the actions of the factions. The figures range from the Huff Post to the NY Times but, just as in the case of Syria, no one has the slightest idea of the number of casualties.
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Re: A Wind-up Jesus

Postby KeithE » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:13 pm

Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote:I think Jim and Dave are talking past each other.

Dave is comparing the embassy attacks (Beirut vs the Benghazi) while Jim is comparing deaths in American wars.

Dave is right that the partisan political reaction to the embassies ambushes is way off balance - Beirut was far bigger in terms of deaths. And Beirut involved arguably more negligence on the Reagan administration’s part than the Obama's administration (turned into Hillary's) negligence. That smelled of political demagoguery - that worked. The RW attack team is rabid and out of control.

But Jim is right in that Obama has largely been given a pass on the Libyan War (really about regime change). Read about that here.



I don’t believe an embassy was involved in Beirut. The attack was on a Marine barracks that was ill-located and ill-guarded. A French barracks with some 60-70 French soldiers killed, if memory serves, was attacked at the same time (courtesy of Hezbollah). There’s no talking past each other involved, merely the comparison (not instigated by me) of the actions of the factions. The figures range from the Huff Post to the NY Times but, just as in the case of Syria, no one has the slightest idea of the number of casualties.


Well you are right about no embassy in Beirut. But what I was really thinking about was the ambush nature of the attacks and lack of effective protection. The Dems did not take Reagan to task, while there have been 7 GOP demanded investigations over Benghazi. That is the nature of the the RW these days - looking hard for any angle to throw Dems under the bus. They are mean, to say the least.

My last say on this matter. Better get back to Bill Leonard's article - a good one.
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