John Pierce quote of the year

[William Thornton]

"One is more likely to find a close-up selfie of a preacher with both the Loch Ness Monster and the Yeti than an actual account of a minister being coerced by government to perform a wedding against his or her convictions or wishes. It has not and cannot happen."



Almost makes me want to be a moderate.

[KeithE]

[Sandy]

[KeithE]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

[William Thornton]

I sympathized with Keith's pastor back when he was thrust into the public eye by the actions of Keith's neighbor.

There is, of course, no constitutional right to remain in any religious affiliation. We make our own decisions.

[Stephen Fox]

My reply to this column is a great wedding story I left on Pierce facebook wall

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

I'm not sure anyone is doing research on this subject, specifically. Denominations that have become open to ordination of LGBT clergy are going through a period of record, accelerated decline from what they were previously experiencing, but that's not connected specifically to local church ministry with LGBT persons. Like you, Timothy, I can only reference anecdotal information pertaining to specific churches of which I know that have become welcoming and affirming. What I've seen are churches which focus a ministry toward LGBT persons, and go through controversy and conflict in the church to do it. Then, once they have sacrificed by losing members and having the controversy, the LGBT ministry becomes its main focus, and other ministries go lacking. So more people drift out, but because the LGBT community doesn' t have a high level of church interest, they don't drift in.

[Tim Bonney]

Yes, denominations that take stands on controversial issues usually do lose members. The status quo is often the best way to keep the same people around the longest. That doesn't mean, conversely, that changing nothing keeps denominations from decline. Last stats I saw the UMC and the SBC have about the same rate of membership decline per year according to the Public Religious Research Institute.

I hate to say so, but churches that make any kind of change often start by losing members. Established churches are often change resistant to any kind of change be that being more welcoming to LGBT people, a change in worship style, mission priorities or whatever.

But we have to really really watch about making moral or justice decisions based on how many people might leave. Southern Christians who stood up for African-Americans in churches would have never said a word if their prime motivation was to not lose church members.

[KeithE]

[KeithE]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Stephen Fox]

There is a wild and bullying conversation at the PBC facebook wall of Jeff Hood.

Yet no one can find the list of the 400 names of the people who signed the petition around the Gboro CBF event , The Orlando statement even though cbfblog.com and baptistnews.com did stories.

The conversation here and the one on the PBC fbk wall are two different galaxies universes most of which claims to have insight on the direction of the CBF

I think a new thoroughgoing piece should follow up talking to Lia Scholl, Jeff Hood and the other so called self identified prophetic voices at PBC. Ellen Jimmerson also has taken the bullhorn there.

Ed see if you can come up with those signatures. JPierce should be able to find them so we can see them within the greater CBF world.

[Stephen Fox]

[William Thornton]

[Dave Roberts]

I find the lack of data allows almost any prejudice to be confirmed in this area. My first it that "just as all politics is local," all situations involving churches and their ministries to gay couples are also local. My suspicion is that the doing gay weddings for people with whom you do not have a prior (or likely future) relationship probably hurts a church simply as a statement of a position. The marriage of a couple who have already been part of your ministry and may have family roots in a church may be a plus for some congregations. I'm convinced that this is too broad for generalizations to work.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Stephen Fox]

[Stephen's post, irrelevantly put here, is now its own topic on CBF forum. Wm]

[...and Stephen, if you cannot address the subject start a topic. Don't foul mine up with your stuff. Your relevant comments are always welcome. Wm]

[KeithE]

[William Thornton]

So Keith, you want your church to exercise autonomy even if it denies autonomy to your association and state convention? Doesn't work that way. Cannot work that way. Your pastor and church made their choice. Whatever consequences followed should be fully owned.