"If God is Love"

[Tim Bonney]

I don't believe the eternity in torment thing.

[Tim Bonney]

[James]

Haruo, you and I have both lived in hell and survived to live in the knowledge of God's grace. I rejoice with you and for you.

I'm still reading. This particular book is not an intellectual challenge. Any one of us on this forum could probably read this book in one or two sittings and pass a test on what was said. However the book is a spiritual challenge. Gulley wants to overturn theology. He wants us to abandon blood atonement and exclusiveness and to concentrate on living like Jesus without the baggage of 2,000 years of what someone after Jesus thought Jesus was trying to do. It is the spiritual challenge that gives one pause. Read a chapter and think. Examine one's own faith. So far I bye into the idea that Christianity or the Church needs to become more gracious and less picky about theology. But I am steeped in the idea that Jesus died for me. I still cling to "the old rugged cross" because what happened on that cross makes sense to me. I am not yet willing to abandon it, because I live today (instead of dying at age 17) because of what happened there.

Another insight that came to me while reading is that some of the people who call themselves Christians and preach "hate the sin but love the sinner" are really demonstrating the opposite position "love the sin (because it gives us an excuse to hate and we have to hate someone to feel good about ourselves and superior to someone else. If we cannot do this, what good is believing that Christianity is the true way." The corollary to this is "hate the sinner."

Gulley says this about Al Moler who said about Gulley that "he accused me of telling itching ears what they want to hear." (page 146) So far this is the only time he has cited a critic by name.

[Sandy]

[James]

Thank you Sandy. I find much of what you say insightful. You and Timothy with an assist from Haruo have about got this tension between the cross, free will and living graciously figured.

[Willis]

[Willis]

[Tim Bonney]

Willis, the most obvious is John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish....." etc.

[Willis]

[Willis]

[Tim Bonney]

Heresy is a very slippery word Willis. Heresy according to whom? The United Methodist Church has official doctrine much more so that Baptists do. There isn't really an authority to declare anything heresy in a Baptist church. United Methodists can be found to be heretics but only by trial and that almost never happens.

And things that are considered official doctrine in the UMC might seem like heresy to Baptists or things Baptists believe might be considered heresy to United Methodists.

[Tim Bonney]

Willis, unless Sandy has done something new recently, he is a guy rather than a gal.

[Willis]

[Willis]

[Willis]

[Tim Bonney]

Willis, for United Methodists scripture is our primary authority, not our sole authority. We believe that Scripture, Tradition, Reason and Experience are all authorities.

[Sandy]

Universalism is an incorrect interpretation of scripture. Heresy, from what I've been taught, is a doctrine that is deliberately deceitful, and intentional in leading people away from basic salvation by grace through faith in Jesus. Universalism is the belief that the experience of salvation involves irresistible grace in the case of every human being, not just a specific group of the "elect." That would be, in my opinion, an incorrect interpretation of scripture, but believing in universalism doesn't prevent a person from finding saving faith in Christ, nor does it cause them to be sent to hell in punishment for getting it wrong.

Good to see you join the discussion, Brother Willis! So you're in WV. Where? Though I'm not a native West Virginian, my family goes back five generations in those hills, around Clarksburg-Bridgeport and West Union.

[Tim Bonney]

Really heresy is the definition for a doctrine that is outside the teachings of "the Church" or "a Church" and it assumes there is some authority to rule on what is and isn't heresy. The problem is we don't just have one "Church" any more so there isn't one authority to decide heresy.

[Willis]

[Willis]

[Willis]

[Sandy]

[Willis]

[Willis]

[Tim Bonney]