What millennials expect

[Chris]

Our church (CBF and SBC) has been renting office space (3 offices in an older part of the building) to a church that calls itself "multi-denominational" (but its website indicates Pentecostal ties). They hold services in another building on Saturday nights. (it has limited parking)(and our church has adequate parking on site) . They tried to get us to make cosmetic and structural changes to our sanctuary in 2011 so that they could move in and hold their services on Saturdays. We didnt buy into their plan, and we went ahead and renovated our sanctuary with brand new carpet and pews. We expanded the stage. In 2015, we used part of a bequest (about $40,000) to upgrade the sound system, and sound booth, and add a drop down electric screen. City Life Church is seizing the opportunity (we are between pastors ) to try to push its way thru the door again. They have proposed a $150,000 transformation for our church in which we would pay 60% and they would pay 40%, and they would stop paying the $833/month rent for the offices....and get "first refusal" should we ever decide to sell our church. (It's like they are hoping we will fail). They have got the interim pastor (a 30-ish man who grew up in our church), and the chairman of the Church Cabinet on board. We had an "informational" meeting last night to hear the presentation. The line I keep hearing from the interim pastor, and their pastor, and a couple of thirty-somethings in our church is that --- "Improvements to our sanctuary would be more appealing to young families**...IT'S WHAT THEY EXPECT!" REALLY. Do they really? I haven't heard of any young families who rejected our church because it looks too 1960-ish. What about us old people in our 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s, who find a church WITHOUT drum cages, theatrical lighting and sound, more aesthetically appealing? Where are we supposed to go to church? So what we have is a big generational war, brought on by an outsider who stuck his nose in our business. They expect us to vote on the proposal at the next business meeting (March 16),and they expect to be worshiping in our "improved" sanctuary by Mothers' Day. Based on the discussion last night, I'd say it is a 55-45 split with those who favor slightly in the majority., Those who are skeptical of the proposal seem more worried about the financial arrangement than the fact that the aesthetics of our beautiful, newly renovated sanctuary are about to be ruined forever! Their pastor, last night "Do we have the money to go our own way and build our own church? Yes we do!" But he wants us to believe that it is a nobler goal for them to move into our building and share it with us.

[Chris]

Their web site http://www.citylifeva.com/
Out web site http://www.nrbcnn.org./

[William Thornton]

I'm a bit wary, Chris, although I cannot visualize the changes and howthet would affect your worship space.

Here are some questions:

1. Does the proposal tie your church to a fixed price for your building if you decide to sell out? I wouldn't necessarily object to the right of refusal for the other church. If your church wants to sell out and the other church can better the price of a contract offer I'm OK with that.

2. In exchange for their $60,000 payment to the church what do they get? (a) free rent for both offices and sanctuary? Sanctuary use every Saturday and office use...for how many years? In perpetuity or a fixed term? You are giving up about $10k annually in revenue and are adding free use of the sanctuary. The church could easily borrow $150k for a short term and use rent to make payments and rent the other church your sanctuary. Smells like a sweetheart deal for the other church. I don't see $60k worth of benefits to your church.

I'd want to see the contract. I don't like the terms that you've laid out. I don't like relinquishing control on this basis. If your church says, 'no deal' and the other church walks, you've only lost a little rent revenue. I'm guessing that they don't have a huge sum to relocate elsewhere. They are lowballing you, seems to me.

[Cathy]

Good analysis, William. I agree that there is nothing particularly attractive about the arrangement. Also over time you could have a drift of membership join your church from CityLife and tip the balance for further negotiations. But this could happen anyway.

There was a KJV only church wanting to buy the church here and they working on both the local members and the NW ABC. It seemed that they were looking forward to our failing. I suspect the previous "pastor" had been making some promises to them.

NW ABC lost a church in a similar situation where a fundamentalist church met in the building and members started joining the original church. Then they joined the church up with a fundamentalist denomination and dropped ABC.

I'm not sure that an interim pastor should get involved in this sort of negotiation.

[William Thornton]

My father was in the real estate business for 70 years and dealt with many churches and pastors both in the purchase/sale and appraisal of property. He came to have an utter disdain and disgust with pastors because they almost all wanted people to give them of their church property and were often not truthful and forthcoming in negotiations.

[Dave Roberts]

I don't know the situation, but it sounds like a property takeover bid. I would have questions, no matter how pious the offer seems to be, and the more pious, the more questions. William's analysis was pretty well on target.

[Chris]

I wish we had picked Dave Roberts to be our Interim. But the man, standing in the wings, was a BTSR graduate, who has been a member since he was 9 years old. There was a tidal wave of support to name him Interim Pastor. I wish I had known he could be so easily influenced by an outside snake oil salesman. There is also a faction in the church that would have us by-pass the Pastor Search committee and give this young man the senior pastor job. I am wondering if, at any business meeting, someone could move that we dissolve the Pastor Search committee and just award this man the job. I am one of 6 people on the Pastor Search committee, and we are not yet ready to accept resumes. We were told by a BGAV employee that we can expect a lot. The committee decided in week One that we will not bring anyone before the church unless we have unanimity among the six of us.

[Chris]

[William Thornton]

[Chris]

I appreciate all of these comments and concerns. Can somebody address the postulate that "young families EXPECT" the theatrical lights, screens, and audio systems.? How can anyone say what the next person walking in the door "expects"? Not all people my age (75) expect a sanctuary with organ, piano, choir loft, and speaker stand in the middle of the stage. I'm tired of hearing that people my age want a "1960s building". Actually there is nothing wrong with wanting my "grandfather's Oldsmobile". It was better built than today's cars.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Chris probably still has me blocked But I have grave doubts about any group with "City" what ever in their name. Our association lost a historic church (Teddy Roosevelt borrowed GYM to deliver a Radio speech, when the parade he was leading got rained out)) to a group called City View who came in with a very similar tact. Same pattern except they kept the pastor on the pay roll no one seem to be real sure what he does these days. As I drove by one day I noted a Brand New Sign saying CITY CHURCH, (Baptist had been in their name for more than 100) but not now years as I pulled over to snap a picture the "pastor" pulled in behind me an I got out to say hello and ask what was happening, and he said we are making some changes to attract younger people with children. I asked if the name change would have anything to do with their relationship to the Capital Area Baptist Association and/or the NYS Region he said Oh NO!, we are still involved with both. Less than a month later the was a half page story On the front page of one of the local papers about that church having left the American Baptist Churches of America. The new "Lead Pastor" was quoted as saying they had nothing against ABC/USA or any other baptist and that in fact when he was in Texas he worked with with a Baptist Church. When the ABCNYS Regional Executive Minister inquired by mail as to their intentions he received no reply.

We have a few members who where raised in that church and still have relatives there. One of their brothers a gentleman in his late 70's did come to our church for over a year before he passed away, in part over a broken heart over at the loss of the church he had grown up in. He said their was no talking to The "lead Pastor" and his associate. He was mostly resigned to his loss but did say he wished he could get back the stained glass windows that he had installed in the front doors of that Church's building, in honor of his Mother and Father.

There is apparently some thing known as the city church movement that has taken over a number of churches around the country. I googled a number of leads but gave up the search which led to no solid information after about three months. But William, I do think they have money and I am rather sure it is Texas oil money. When Trudy retires an we start full time RVing. I hope to do some follow up on this movement.

My email address for any one who has ant information is Pettibonete@Gmail .com cell 518 227_5527

[James]

Chris, I am shocked and saddened by your post and the insightful analysis given above. Judy and I attended your church several times and almost felt at home there, but not quite. We eventually went back to HBC. HBC has had its problems in the past. It fired our organist/choir master through non-by-laws procedures. It was technically a forced resignation. It is having its problems now, but we are facing them together. We will be dedicating our new building soon. Hope to see you there, Dave. You and Dawn have been a big part of our lives. We may fail in the near future or we may thrive, but I believe God is with us and for us.

So Chris if you and your class loose your home, come on down to HBC. We are beginning to get a few young families.

[Chris]

[Tim Bonney]

[Cathy]

I agree with Tim it is a niche. Our community has several of these worship venues already. It may be saturated. This one (http://freshlifechurch.com) has sucked a lot of the young people out of the more established churches in town. And certainly they have some baby boomers as well. My nephew and his wife are cowboy church types in North Louisiana.

[Sandy]

I'm not so sure that the church, as a whole, has really hit on the expectations of millennials, when it comes to either expectations in worship, or needs that can be met by a local church. Most churches build their worship and programs around the preferences of their members. Some build it around perceived preferences to attract a certain demographic. From the numbers of millennials who are actually attending worship, I'd say there's no particular style or type of worship that is successful in drawing them, reaching them, or leading them to worship.

I certainly understand that people have an affinity for the building that has housed a church to which they have become particularly attached. And I know that for a lot of people, particularly in my parent's generation, the appearance and the look and feel of a church "sanctuary" carries a lot of memories and sentiment when it comes to worship. On the other hand, worship in the New Testament is described as having occurred in homes, and in fact, having the "right" kind of building to house it and the things we think are required to accompany it are not a necessity, regardless of the style. It does seem a little bit impractical to design a building with fixed seating, and permanently arranged in a way that can only be used for a particular style of worship and hence is only occupied by people for perhaps as many as three hours a week, or less, even if you worship in a more traditional style.

The movement to use worship style as a means of attracting people to a church has been successful in shuffling people around, but not so much in terms of adding to the kingdom. Nor has it been successful in keeping the children of church members who are millennials in the church. So I'm guessing what's needed is less related to worship style, and more related to substance.

[Dave Roberts]

[Sandy]

Part of Christian discipleship is learning how to worship. And I think that, much more than worrying about the "style" of the music, or the way the service is conducted, is where we lose people. Worship is intended to be an expression of the church's love for God, not something to which people are "attracted." One of the megachurches in this area recently had an ad on the radio and in the paper announcing that a certain individual, known in Christian music and who had been on the worship team of a certain large Houston church was now joining their praise band on Sunday morning. So you'd change churches because of who was in the praise band? Really?

I recently went to a Quaker meeting in one of the most historic meeting houses in the country. That was quite a different experience. If I lived in that city, I'd go all the time. The focus was all about meeting God, and while I can't speak for anyone else in the room, I sure did.

[Tim Bonney]

Sandy,

You bring up some good points. The bigger problem than worship styles is Christian consumerism. People pick churches for what they feel they get out of it rather than what they can put into it. I hear phrases like, "I want a church that feeds me."

Well by the time you are an adult mature Christian you should be able to feed yourself rather than sit in the pew like a baby bird wanted all your needs met for you.

I see nothing wrong with different worship styles. But I do see a problem with making getting what I want the be all and end all of choosing a church.

[Chris]

The regular business meeting was held March 16. There were people I had not seen in months. The motion was made that we accept the proposal of the tenant church (for lack of a better word) to be more integrated with ours..and that we spend $125,000 making the improvements they feel they must have. they have seduced some of the leadership of our church into thinking the renovations would benefit us, also. After about 30 minutes of passionate speeches on both sides...the motion passed 33 to 31.
Within two hours I learned of two couples who are leaving. there will, no doubt,be more. The pastor of the tenant church, who stuck his nose in our business and caused this split, had been so sure of winning, he had lined up contractors to start making the renovations on March 28, because he says he needs to be in our facility by Mothers Day. That alone was reason to vote no.

[Sandy]

Most churches I've belonged to, or served, had a bylaw that required a two thirds vote in favor of major changes or capital expenses such as what yours is proposing. I'd be checking the church bylaws and constitution for those kinds of rules. It also seems a tad bit irregular for an interim pastor to be making this kind of move, especially if he has any aspirations of ever serving another congregation as a pastor. That kind of incident would be a major red flag to any potential search committee.

[Tim Bonney]

[Chris]

I am 90% sure I will resign from the Deacons. What I want to say is that "I cannot serve or take communion with people who were so easily seduced by the devil," but my wife says that is "not the high road." I would like some suggestions for a "high road" reason for resigning. I will stay on the Pastor Search Team because I hope to make sure that our next pastor is someone who cannot be easily seduced by a smooth-talking snake oil salesman.

[James]

Chris, search the book of Hebrews. I know, from what you say, that no one has committed apostasy in the truest since of the word, but it seems to me that they have taken a metaphorical first step. The ones who voted for this deal have not persevered in the faith of the Baptist saints who have gone before them. Instead they have betrayed the faith of their fathers and have probably angered the person or group who gave the $40,000. They have eaten of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They have sold their birthright for a bowl of porridge.

All of the above could be argued from the other side as being trapped in the past, that the new millennium demands new ways of thinking, etc., but I like you am old and I would like to live out my days worshipping in familiar ways with the people I love singing the familiar hymns and hearing sermons of substance.

In the end, when you and your ladies and others who feel the way you and I do have had enough, come on down to HBC. Most of you who live close to North Riverside could drive to us in about 30 minutes. Judy and I live beside Deer Park Baptist at the intersection of J. Clyde and I-64 and we make the trip in 10 to 15 minutes.

I shared your news with Loyd and Joanne Rawls last night. They said they would be praying for you and the church.

[Sandy]