Peace and Wonder on Rise

[KeithE]

Key Figure:




Key Figure:


Note the gain in the “unaffiliated” ’s spiritual peace and sense of wonder of (5% / 8% In the first chart) is similar to the 6% drop in “religious affiliation” (in the second chart)

But the number that pops out the most is the growth in the sense of wonder of the atheistic, 17% (near bottom of first chart).

My initial outtake on this is that Christian churches are not being receptive to those who have spiritual experiences but do not necessarily embrace all the church trappings (e.g informal norms, dogma, participation, etc.) - like atheists or agnostics. What would be wrong about inviting atheists/agnostics into worship w/o strings attached? And be sensitive to their viewpoints in the worship/sermons.

What do yawl think?

[Ed Pettibone]

KeithE wrote "My initial outtake on this is that Christian churches are not being receptive to those who have spiritual experiences but do not necessarily embrace all the church trappings (e.g informal norms, dogma, participation, etc.) - like atheists or agnostics. What would be wrong about inviting atheists/agnostics into worship w/o strings attached? And be sensitive to their viewpoints in the worship/sermons.

What do yawl think? "

Ed: In what way(s) do you see "Christian churches are not being receptive to those who have spiritual experiences but do not necessarily embrace all the church trappings (e.g informal norms, dogma, participation, etc.) - like atheists or agnostics.? " Also what strings do you think need to be removed and what would being sensitive to their viewpoints in the worship/sermons, look like.?

I think perhaps what you are calling "Spritual experiance " is indeed the Holy Spirit challenging those persons to seek communion with the Christian community with no stings of their own.

[William Thornton]

[Tim Bonney]

[KeithE]

I’ve considered all your comments and here is my reply.

If the spiritually affected like those of the “spiritual-but-not-religious” types hear only you must believe in x, y and z and act in manners a,b and c to avoid hell (or to even belong) when they visit a church (seeking community, solace, conversation or whatever), it is unlikely they will feel welcome or benefit in any way from further involvement. So avoid you-must preaching from the pulpit or coercion towards z,y,z,a,b,c from the laypeople. Stating them is fine, but do so lightly. The heavy handed approach assumes you know what the Final Judge’s criteria are.

I’ll betcha many people in the pews (who one would think ascribed to x,y,z,a,b,c) hold reservations on many of those points.

Love of people wherever they stand is the great salve that makes it all work together. I see no real reason to discourage the spiritual seekers for the purposes of creating a like-thinking congregation. Let the people do their own tethering (that is attach strings from themselves to Spirit-inspired practices {be they loose or tight} and beliefs {be they conservative or liberal}). In fact that is the only genuine form of tethering.

Preaching should be aimed at encouraging Spiritual encounters - that can be received by both the very religious types and the spiritual-but-not-religious types. Forcing z,y,z, a, b, c down congregant's throats or people feeling “justified” by belonging to a like-thinking band, leads to the religion of Pharisaism. I see too little of the bolded italicized above and too much of the underlined above in the America today.

[Dave Roberts]

[Tim Bonney]

[William Thornton]

[Haruo]

Later today I'll try to find time to recount my memory of my experiences when I was first seeking baptism, and my experienced with atheism in AA.

[Haruo]

WHOOO-EEE that overposted! Gotta love the cellphone God gave me. Some moderator please delete this and all but one of the preceding reduplicated posts!

[Dave Roberts]

That may leave a few less posts.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Interesting series. I will get back in when I have two eyes to work with. The surgery went fine, the patch is a nuisance.

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Haruo]

Thus far I haven't had enough time at the computer to compose and post what I mentioned, but I just wanted to say congratulations to Ed on successful surgery. I've been off work for a week myself with what turns out to be osteoarthritic complications, so I may be retiring earlier than anticipated and will then have tons of time to post stuff. But right now, I've got to dress for success and go to work.

[KeithE]

[Tim Bonney]

[KeithE]

I've never understood "grace alone" but "We accept". Prevenient grace must be and is offered to all, but we must accept and act with love of God and man (including ourselves). Thus grace is necessary but not sufficient. Cheap grace is not the whole story.

[Tim Bonney]

[KeithE]

[William Thornton]

I appreciate most any pov when it comes to perception of pastors, preaching, and churches.

Jesus never adjusted TRUTH based on his audience. He plainly identified the sin of both the woman at the well and the woman taken in adultery. I've considered often over the several decades I preached to a congregation and guests what I should convey to hearers and whether or not it would be wise to avoid some subjects lest a 'seeker' (or a wayward member) might be offended. I concluded that faithfully declaring God's truth, all of it over time, in a sincere and loving manner is always right. Let others skirt difficult questions and hard truths if they wish.

No one here is a candidate for a lecture about harsh, unloving bombast unless a couple of folks who used to be here show up again.

The idea of a pastor, who should represent God in his community and preach the whole counsel of God to those who are part of his congregation, avoiding certain commandments or certain matters of settled doctrine because some may be offended is silly. A pastor who has been in his church for any length of time and who has not either preached through the Decalogue or touched on all of the commandments is guilty of ministerial malpractice. If I happened to be on a preaching plan that takes a single commandment per Sunday and skip the seventh because some adulterer might be offended, shame on me. There is certainly a loving way and an unloving way to do it. I choose the former.

Having an environment where attendees feel comfortable in stating what they believe is a good thing. It takes some wisdom and judgment to know what is the proper reaction to unbelievers but the church is steward of a body of truth and if the pastor and members are not willing to uphold truth then they fail both God and unbelievers.

"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."

I don't disparage honest doubts but for those who are seeking the truth, it will be plain to them.

[KeithE]

[William Thornton]

Keith asked: Is it equally malpractice not to teach all the Levitical/Deuteronomical Laws?

No it is not. I know of no commentator who doesn't make some distinction between moral, ceremonial, and civil laws in the OT. It is never a completely satisfactory exercise but when I hear someone like you (and you are far from the first and not the most informed I have ever encountered) ask the question as you did, I recognize that I'm dealing with three possibilities (1) uninformed questioner, (2) informed but provocative questioner who wants to know if I recognize the issues on this, (3) someone who hasn't worked out any sensible Biblical morality. I judge you to be all three.

I feel sure that I've dealt with all the issues on the Decalogue that you've ever thought about and many that you are ignorant of. I'll take a lecture on climate change from you. I welcome your opinions on how you perceive pastors and preaching.

[Dave Roberts]

[KeithE]