Clarity of Church Identity

[William Thornton]

[Ed Pettibone]

[William Thornton]

Like I said, we never tire of this stuff. Heck, Ed, we were talking this stuff back when you were a Southern Baptist.

I might show up at your and Trudy's church one day and I'd bet I enjoy it more than many SBC churches I've visited since I retired.

[Sandy]

**duplicate post deleted**

[Sandy]

I wonder which "fundamentalist" was involved in the conservative resurgence? I've never seen one named. Nor has it been explained to me how the SBC was "taken over". There was no entitlement accorded to the individuals who were in leadership prior to 1979 that put them in a position to not have an opponent in an election. Those who were elected were, by definition, members of cooperating SBC churches and were eligible to be nominated, and those who elected them were eligible to serve as messengers to cast the ballots. You can't "take over" something to which you already belong. The fact that, more than 30 years out, the remnant of the small group of moderates who are still critical of the SBC keep using the term "takeover" indicates their sense of entitlement, and of being out of touch with the SBC's constituency.

What changed, doctrinally? Other than the insertion of a phrase that states a belief that the Bible doesn't allow for a woman serving as a pastor, there's not much different in the BFM statements. There's nothing in the 2000 statement that identifies it as "fundamentalist." And its still not a creed. It is what it always has been, a statement that defines agreed-upon points of denominational cooperation. Adopting it isn't a requirement for denominational cooperation for churches, only for denominational agencies and institutions.

I think that may be why many CBF congregations have a difficult time with a separate identity. They're not that much different otherwise than most SBC congregations. Most don't call female pastors, and aren't likely to do so. Most believe and preach a Bible without error. The bottom line is that many of them were used to having multiple members on SBC boards and committees, and most of those were replaced. Otherwise, what's different?

[Cathy]

[Sandy]

Well, Cathy, I did attend a moderate, CBF affiliated Baptist church for over a decade. What was exactly different from that church than SBC congregations I attended prior to, or following, would be difficult to pin down. I've never belonged to an SBC church that didn't see girls as equal to boys, though equality doesn't always mean that your ministry will be the same. The moderate church I belonged to did ordain women, and in fact was one of the first in Texas to do so, though it has yet to call a woman as a pastor, making it not much different from several other SBC churches where I've been a member or on staff. I've never belonged to a Calvinist SBC congregation, though there have been Calvinist members of churches I've belonged to, including the moderate one. The church claimed affinity with the BGCT more so than CBF, and accepted the 1963 BFM which says, that the Bible is "truth without error" in exactly those words. "A perfect treasure of divine inspiration," it says. And I'd bet, if you individually asked each member of a CBF congregation, chosen at random, you would find an overwhelming majority would declare a belief that the Bible has no errors in it.

So are the differences really there, or is CBF still, for the most part, indistinguishable from the Southern Basptists of their roots. Since 90% of their churches are still contributing to the SBC, I say there's little difference.

[Tim Bonney]

[William Thornton]

[William Thornton]

It's been a while but I was once labeled as a "closet moderate" here. There are several CBF churches near me that I could feel quite comfortable in, though I might not want to give to some of their causes. The CBF, seems to me, hasn't arrived at a clear identity that is distinctive. I would wonder if there will be a CBF in 50 years. The SBC has an identity but it includes a number of time-bombs that will damage it sometime down the road. There's no doubt that the SBC will be around in 50 years.

[Haruo]

Umm, William, after the Rapture?!

[William Thornton]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Dave Roberts]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[William Thornton]

Folks, clergy and laity, should go where they are happy...up to a certain biblical point, that is.

Although not a Methodist, I'm certainly pleased that Timothy has found a place where he can serve with some satisfaction, but I don't buy his broad generalizations about ecclesiology. The appalling experiences he has had make his pronouncements highly prejudiced. Mine might be the same were I in his shoes.

But here's an odd anecdote: I'm I contact with a few people in a baptist church that is having a bit of conflict centering on the pastor. A former non-congregationalist is a key player in a move to make a pastoral change...partly because in his former church a pastor who displeased a segment of the congregation would be shuffled off by the denominational hierarchy. Hmmm..a two-way street it seems.

I'd say that my friend Timothy is a bit out of touch in regard to trends in the SBC where a growing issue is pastoral power and spiritual abuse.

As an aside, I have a grandchild who attends a UMC preschool program which had a Christmas program for the little kiddiepoos and their doting families. I've never been to one of these where there was so much devoted to squeezing money out of attendees: tickets to get in, silent auctions for various items, kiddie made trinkets for sale, on-and-on. Makes me glad I'm a baptist where we just ask for cash. But the preschool program is a good one and the teachers are all wonderful people.

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Dave Roberts]

I'm fascinated by how we all defend our turf. I started this based on a Sunday drive to speak in a church. In listening, however, I am reminded of how much we share a lack of clarity. A couple of weeks back, I met with the pastor search committee of a church that bills themselves as SBC, but will allow designated gifts to CBF. What is interesting is that over half their deacons (including the chairperson) are women. During their interim. they have had women fill the pulpit on several occasions. Also, women serve the Lord's Supper, take the offering, and lead prayers in worship. Are they really an SBC church? Their numbers seem to be legion.

A second observation is that after five months of serving as the CBFVA Interim Field Coordinator, what I am seeing in no way matches the picture Sandy is painting. In VA, almost all of our CBFVA leadership is held by younger people, many of whom were not even born when the SBC wars were in full tilt or who were born during them. They don't look back on the history. They love the way CBF operates, the missiology, and the openness to women in leadership. When I am not preaching, I am attending a church served by a woman pastor and past moderator of CBFVA. The preaching is biblical, the concern is for missions, baptisms take place regularly, and the congregation is divided among old and young.

A third observation is that there is a great deal of agitation in many churches across the spectrum caused by the loyalty to the Tea Party ideology, the Trump factor, the distrust of all authority including clergy. and the desire to take the church back to the glory days they remember. At the same time, they are glorifying Mike Huckabee's phony history of America that Christianizes everything and makes the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution almost "God Breathed." The desire for a renewed Christianity is one without repentance or atonement that looks more like Joel Osteen than Jesus. The coded words of racism embedded in this ideology make us more Southern than Baptist.

Fourth, there is a great sense of loss for many of us as we have watched Baptists fight for almost 40 years, all of which has crippled evangelism, has reduced mission support, and has blackened the good name of Baptists. I grieve to see the SBC reducing missions staff at the IMB. CBF is maintaining its core missions emphasis, but we are stuck at 126 units of service among global missions personnel because gifts do not come to us any better than to the SBC. We are no longer challenging ourselves with the world before us. Instead, we have become far more locally focused than globally so. Identity is part of this decline of mission support in all groups. The lack of clarity makes it harder to inspire giving. Also, identity must be more than just, "I'm not like them."

[Tim Bonney]

Statements by Trump and others about Muslims are a huge problem and are leading to potential violence.

The college I part-time teach at put out a statement on islamophobia which I signed. Also we are going to an inter-faith event to declare our support for our Muslim community here in Sioux City. The local Rabbi is organizing the event which I hope a lot of clergy from different groups will support.

David, we still have a few UMC churches who cause problems when they get assigned a woman pastor even though the UMC has ordained women and appointed women for many years. Like the SBC church you mentioned that really seems more CBF than SBC because of the role of women, these churches don't seem to act very Methodist. They should know by now that since the merger in 1968 to form the UMC appointments are not made with regard to gender or race. But apparently not everyone has gotten the memo.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Dave what you seem to be saying is that Clarity and Baptist is an oxymoron.
I am satisfied with either the 1995 definition of CBF adopted at the Assembly in Ft Worth.

" We are a fellowship of Baptist Christians and churches who share a passion for the Great Commission of Jesus Christ and a commitment to Baptist principles of faith and practice our Mission is to Network, empower, and equip Baptist Christians and churches for effective missions and ministry in the name of Jesus Christ." Or the more succinct statement of mission adopted in 2005. "Serving Christians and churches as they discover and fulfill their God given mission."

When Talking with those who have no CBF background I have sometimes modified these to say "CBF is a Service organization that in the Name of Jesus Christ assist Christian individuals and churches to meet our Christian obligations, while respecting the God honoring diversity among said individuals and churches . "

[Tim Bonney]

Ed, what does the CBF do in placement now? Is it like the ABC with a profile system? Or more like the SBC?

One of the reasons early on that I chose the ABC over the CBF at the time was that I saw no specific way to get into a CBF church. I was too young to put my name in for one of the tall steeple CBF flagship churches. How do young CBFers look for a CBF pastorate?

(Or maybe this is a good question for David?)

[Ed Pettibone]

[Dave Roberts]