Clarity of Church Identity

[Sandy]

I've read A Hill on Which to Die. I've also read several from the moderate perspective. Aside from Grady Cothen's first book on the subject, most of the writers emphasize their own perspective as being "closest" to being true, blue SBC, and focus on the extremes of the other side that make them look out of step and different.

The only real difference that I've observed, and I've been involved in churches and ministries set from both perspectives, is that CBF was initially distinguished from the SBC by its opposition to the personalities who came into SBC leadership. That's really about it. In recent years, seeing the need for some specific distinguishing features, CBF has pulled itself in the direction of increasing the involvement of women in ministry, and more recently, in being more gay and lesbian friendly. I'm not sure how well that is being received, or accepted, in its churches. Clearly some of their churches were moving in that direction, and were already distinguished from the SBC in that regard even prior to 1979, but not many. The excuse given for not considering a woman in the moderate church I once belonged to was, "We need someone with a whole lot more experience than the few women who showed an interest in our pulpit." If the record of CBF affiliated churches calling women as pastors is an indication, they are not very much different from the SBC in that regard. I know several women who I went to seminary with, or whom I've worked with, who have been waiting to be called to a CBF church for any kind of ministry for two decades now. One friend recently was called to a church I served back in the 90's as their worship leader. It's SBC, though, not CBF.

On the other side of the coin, I think a lot of the characterization here of Southern Baptists is an emphasis on the extremes. Keeping in mind that Southern Baptists are still a denomination of independent, autonomous churches, what "Southern Baptists" believe is still much more a matter of local church autonomy than it is denominational declaration. Whether the denomination put forth a statement or not, fact is, few SBC churches would call a female pastor out of conviction because of the way they interpret the scripture. That doesn't equate to demeaning women, though. Yeah, because of its geographic base, you'll find churches where "wifely submission" is a byword, and where most of the Bibles are black leather KJV's that have endured plenty of thumping. But I'd say those are not numerous enough to characterize the whole denomination. I've served five on staff, either bi-vocationally or full time, and I've never been in one like that. I've also never been in one where the bulk of the ministry leadership and work didn't involve a majority of women, none of whom resented not being "ordained" or saw the lack of such as some kind of put down. I even served one where I worked with a committee which went through the church membership roll and actually "cleaned house," in order to have something that was useful. I've observed very little difference in the culture of CBF-supporting congregations as opposed to SBC churches. They're cut from the same cloth.

Like all denominations, the SBC is headed for some bumps in the road. In another decade, most Protestant American Christians will attend a church that has no denominational label or affiliation. But I agree with William's assessment. What distinguishes CBF that can be relied upon to support and sustain its existence in 30 or 50 years? The SBC will be around, smaller, but still here, and still very likely the largest Protestant denomination in America in 50 years. Where will CBF be, given the record of declining contributions of the past decade?

[David Flick]

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

Good points both Ed. Not all denominations are losing membership. And certainly not all Baptists are SBC.

What I was pointing out is that while people are claiming the death of denominationalism the large denominations are shrinking slowly. 20% membership loss in 10 years is/would be bad. But that still leaves 80% of those folks still in their denomination.

The doom and gloom predictions for the phasing out of denominations is a bit over blown IMNSHO.

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

Sandy,

I'm too far from my main computer to get the stats. But we have a presentation at the Academy of Parish Clergy national conference from that Public Religious Research Institute that named the 2% decrease in the SBC. That stat has also been quoted in other articles. I can find it. But not while I'm on vacation. So I"ll have to hunt it down later.

I'm not sure how they calculate the SBC declining number versus how the do so in the UMC. In the UMC we keep accurate membership records because we are required to. But I'll dig it up when I get the chance and get back to you.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

As I pointed out, Ed, it is hard to pin down membership data on Independent Baptists. Wikipedia says that IFB (independent fundamental Baptists) number 15% of all churches that self-identify as Baptist. I'm guessing that about 5% of Baptists are independent, but not identified as IFB, and that's probably a low side guess. The only other trustworthy source that I know of on that figure would be the Encyclopedia of Religion in America, and they put the IFB figure at 5.8 million.
If you want an accurate measure of the decline of SBC membership, go to the SBC website, and download the annuals with recent membership records. I'd have linked those for you, Ed, but they are about 800 pages each, and it takes a while to download them on a PDF and then find the pages where the data is located. You can do that if you need the citation for this discussion. I didn't think it was necessary, since the other sites I did link show the SBC figures. Didn't you look? Guess not.

[KeithE]

Found that said total SBC membership dropped by 1.5% from 2013 to 2014 while undesignated receipts dropped only by 0.24%. This no doubt includes CBF friendly churches.

The UMC membership dropped by 1.27% from 7,391,911 in 2013 to 7,297,797 in 2014 according to (download the spreadsheet at "2009-2015 Statistical Review”). But expenditures (an approximation of giving) has gone up by 1.3% from 2013 to 2014.

I’d say the UMC is a smidgen healthier.

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

[KeithE]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]