Clarity of Church Identity

[Dave Roberts]

The more I deal with churches, especially as an interim minister, I am finding a pervasive lack of clarity about who they are. Churches with "SBC" on their sign receive CBF's Offering for Global Missions and some CBF churches still take the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering. There are dually aligned SBC/CBF and CBF/SBC showing which they emphasize more. There are churches in VA and TX that are aligned with both state conventions. Likewise, there are churches now far from the states in which they are affiliated that make a different state convention their primary allegiance as in GA churches affiliated with the BGAV. One of the ultimate confusing sets was a church I was in that was affiliated with CBF, ABC, the Alliance of Baptists, a state body, and an local association. It seems all these multiple alignments are detrimental to being the church.

[Tim Bonney]

[Dave Roberts]

Some want to be CBF but fear a few powerful members or a WMU contingent that thinks such a move is abandoning "the missionaries." Others are trying to keep their options open because they do not like the SBC but do not want to leave it behind since it is all they know. The one I cited with ABC, CBF, and AB allegiances wanted to cover all the progressive bases. Some are hopelessly divided with women deacons, ordained women on staff, and Tea Party oriented leadership--schizophrenic in nature. Some of it is the denominational warfare of the past decades, and some is just the refusal of churches to make hard decisions, IMHO>

[John Sneed]

I agree with you about the confusion. My parents started Methodist. But there were six of us youngun's as my dad would say, and there was a Baptist church just up the street, Southern Baptist. This was in Maryland where I grew up. Over the years, when we moved, we stayed within the Southern Baptist circle.

But for me, I am Baptist for a reason. I have attended other churches (most specifically a Presbyterian church) but I could not be a member there. I believe (not trying to sound like a cliche) that Baptist polity is Bible polity. No, I will not debate that. It is enough to say I am Baptist for a reason and I find it hard to identify with churches like Dave describes, who seem not to know exactly who they are.

Bottom line, I prefer clarity. But that is me.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: And of course all the confusion emanates from our major denominational identifier, the autonomy of the local church. We teach it we preach it, but seem to have a problem with those who chose to deviate from our preferred pattern(s).

When Trudy retires we will probably relocate south of the Mason Dixon line, since we have kids in Tx, Mo, Fl.& Ga.. We enjoy living in the NE but there are other places with more reasonable cost of living . Because we hope to do full time Rving for at least five years, we do not expect to become deeply involved in any one local church. As we travel our attention will be primarily focused on ABC and/or CBF churches. Not having a "real church home" our tithe will go to selected institutions of CBF and ABC with Central Seminary where both are involved heading the list.

Dave, I am afraid that a quest for Clarity of Church Identity is some thing of a "wild goose chase" especially among Baptist.
I go back to Henlee Barnette's advice "When folk in the church where you pastor get to fussing, Preach JESUS".

[Dave Roberts]

Ed, I understand where you are coming from, and I also heard that quote from Dr. Barnette. Part of my concern here stems from ministers and their families who are being hurt in this issue. For example, I had lunch recently with a minister who had just moved to a different church from one trying to be all things to all people. Another associate from a church was recently dismissed because he talked too much about CBF to a church that proclaims itself as CBF/SBC. Recently, an interim in my state was called by a church only to have the call withdrawn when a dispute over their identity made him unacceptable to a faction in the church because of the identity of the last church with which he had served. Another friend is leaving the state to go to a church with a clearer self-identity. What I am seeing is a rising level of conflict, some of which is imported from the dysfunctional nature of American society and politics right now. However, it is clearly affecting churches and ministers are becoming the victims to this church "identity crisis."

[Tim Bonney]

Ed I think the difference is that when churches are dually aligned with denominations that generally like and get along with each other then conflict probably is not that likely. But when you have churches aligned with the CBF and SBC you almost have a built in conflict potential.

It isn't the autonomy that is the problem, it is that the CBF and the SBC don't like each other much and have a fair number of theological disagreements as to what it means to be Baptist.

Those disagreements are likely to find their way into a congregation that aligns with both. It is a pretty unique situation. I can't think of other kinds of churches other than Baptists that choose to be aligned both with a denomination (or fellowship) that supports women in ministry and a denomination that strongly is against women in ministry. Or a denomination that believes the Bible is inerrant and a denomination (fellowship) that doesn't.

I can't imagine a Lutheran church being both Missouri Synod and ELCA or a Presbyterian church being both PCUSA and PCA. But Baptists choose on purpose to partner with two faith bodies who fundamentally disagree with each other.

[Dave Roberts]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Dave, I have no perfect solution, but I do think that we need to explore our dependence on absolute autonomy.

Also I have long insisted that students entering college as ministerial students major in any thing other than religion because they may some day find them selves in in the secular job market. Many of our pastors in NYSABC are bi-vocational which allows them to less dependent on the power mongers in their congregations.

[Neil Heath]

I know there are some CBF churches who honor the freedom of their members by sending gifts to the SBC if requested, probably by some older members. (I'm guessing an SBC church would be less likely to do so with CBF givers.) And I'm pretty sure the SBC is still counting them if they get a nickel of offering, even if the bulk of their funds are going to CBF. My church has a couple of folks like that. Funerals will reduce that amount to zero in a few years.

Another factor comes into play with some older pastors who are strongly sympathetic to CBF but will not speak out too strongly or lead their churches in that direction. Their preaching is very moderate in tone, but they are staying with an SBC identity because they know that in retirement there will be more interim opportunities with SBC churches than with CBF churches. Their network of contacts may be in both groups, but there are fewer openings in the smaller group. Purely practical considerations, since many will have too little retirement funds to survive unless they can do interim work.

Neil

[Tim Bonney]

[Dave Roberts]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[William Thornton]

Interesting, Dave. I don't know many SBC churches that have identity problems except some that think they are Presbyterian and some that seem to prefer being nothing identifiable.

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

One thought I had is that the ABC/USA system for pastors is enough different than the SBC/CBF systems that it makes it easier for American Baptists. Ed might want to comment on this.

In the ABC pastors are ordained by the local church upon the recommendation of an ABC body and are recognized by the ABC/USA. So there is no doubt who the pastor is with. SBC and CBF pastors are totally free agents. So honestly the difference is that you'd expect an ABC recognized pastor to support and push the ABC. But since SBC and CBF pastors are free agents then lay people can imagine that they should support whomever they support.

So is it time for Baptist pastors down south to have a CBF system of recognition so that you aren't just a Baptist pastor but you are a recognized CBF Baptist pastor?

[Dave Roberts]

[Sandy]

I've known some individuals whose understanding of the Baptist concept of the independent, autonomous, local church is such that they objected to associational directors of missions keeping files of resumes to distribute to churches, and state conventions using their offices of "Church-Minister relations" to provide personnel information on available pastors and staff members to churches. Personally, my preference would be for a more formal system of keeping track of ordained and licensed ministers, simply to prevent the "good ole boy" mentality, where good friends in influential places move buddy's resumes to the head of the line, or make sure good friend Bubba's resume gets in front of the search committee at El Prominente Baptist Church. And that's not a slam of conservatives, BTW, because that kind of thing was going on long before Pressler and Patterson came around.

When I was involved with CBF, I saw this coming. Don't know how far back posts here go, but I've mentioned things with CBF before that I thought they needed to do differently. When CBF was birthed, it did not represent, or contain, enough of the "power" of moderate Baptist leadership to become the organization around which those opposed to the direction of the SBC could coalesce. It was dwarfed by the Baptist General Convention of Texas, whose leadership took steps to protect its interests and while in agreement on the SBC, wasn't necessary as far to the left theologically. To a lesser degree, even the BGAV and the BSCNC were poles around which moderates gathered, and since they already had institutions to protect, CBF was a smaller player. What needed to happen was for CBF to put together leaders who could aggressively define the organization, pull together and unify the various scattered elements of opposition to the SBC, and define themselves that way. There would have been some cost to that, including losing fence sitting churches, and splintering and splitting of the state convention organizations, but there would have been a core of support, and what was lost in the individual states could have been unified by those churches from states without a convention leaning in a more moderate direction. But they were more interested in putting something together as a job and salary saving program for ex-SBC prominents, and the state conventions embarked on a "preserve and protect" mission. Ironically, the Texas and Virginia state conventions split anyway, and the day that the conservatives in both states have the majority of churches and finances is not too far in the future.

Though CBF keeps statistics either closely guarded, or doesn't publish anything, it is pretty clear from the budget reductions and dollar amounts over the course of its existence that about half of the churches that started out with it are gone, probably most of the fence sitters that leaned more toward the SBC. The box score has been 1,800 CBF affiliated churches for a long time, but if you look at their internet list, and their receipts, and divide them by 1,800, it's pretty clear that the current number of supporting congregations is probably about half of what it was at the peak, I'd guess fewer than 1,000. But that's not a bad thing, nor has the splitting of the two moderate state conventions been, either.

CBF now has an executive officer who was very much an insider in the BGCT which, despite its massive losses of churches and revenue, is still a strong, viable state convention. I would think that a central denominational structure, with the balance of a BGCT on the right, and a BGAV on the left, with room for the struggling, tiny Alliance, and the various elements that have been attracted to CBF would be an ideal Moderate Baptist denomination, with a very clear identity. In pulling it together, there would still be some shakeout of local churches, and some splinters here and there, but taking the risks seems to me to be better than sitting around, waiting for the remaining leadership to hit retirement, collect pensions, and watch the organizations and institutions continue to decline, with the main occupation being how to shuffle the cards, and reorganize and restructure every few years to accommodate the losses of church membership and revenue.

[Tim Bonney]

[Cathy]

It seemed to me that in Texas it was popular to call the church Texas Baptist (meaning participating with the BGCT) and avoid the CBF or SBC label. In our area we have an SBC church and it has SBC on the front of the building. Our retired ABC pastor told me that they had taken the SBC down, but I looked as I drove by and the SBC was still there. Maybe they took it down briefly and it caused a stir.

An aside, the SBC pastor here is awfully nice. I've heard lots of nice things about him. I was serving him spaghetti at a local all denomination benevolence fundraiser. He being a pastor struck up a conversation. Eventually he said, "you must be a Baptist". I assume this had something to do with my southern accent. He told me that I should visit his church and I told him I was CBF. Just can't bring myself to visit an SBC church.

In our town I think the SBC and ABC (one each) are the only churches that aren't KJV only. One church used the ABC building for a revival including a youth night. Several of the ABC members went and invited me to go along. I noticed that the NIV bibles were not in the pews. They also brought their own hymnals but they didn't replace the NIV with KJV they just took them out. My row of visitors included the only women in pants. I think that church is checking out the facility in case they might get a chance to swoop in and buy it. Then the SBC would be the only Baptist church in town that wasn't KJV only.

[Tim Bonney]

It can bet pretty tough to find a variety of churches in smaller communities. I imagine I'd be pretty frustrated if I couldn't find a church I was comfortable with in the community I live in.

I confess to not understanding how anyone who is reasonably intelligent can buy the KJV only stuff. Its clear it isn't the original Bible, its clear it isn't either the first English translation or the last. I just don't get it. But clearly it is important to more people than I'd imagine.

[Dave Roberts]

I rode across about 140 miles of Southside VA yesterday to speak at a church for their Global Missions Emphasis yesterday afternoon. I was passing numerous churches along the way, Baptist and other groups. Not a single Baptist church was identified by their denominational identity except for one that had PNBC on their sign. In a church with two state conventions in the SBC family, it is impossible to tell who is who except by BGAV and SBCV website information, and that is not always current. Had I been trying to find a CBF church along the way yesterday, signage would not have helped.

I also noticed the number of church signs that did not have times of worship and other activities posted on them. Obviously, those churches do not expect to have visitors despite sitting right on a major 4-lane highway that I was following Tim, I also saw one Methodist church that had nothing on their sign except the pastor's name, hanging by small chains underneath the main sign, obviously ready for quick changes .

It's hard to tell the players in church, even by their signs.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

It appears to me that a lot of churches do obscure the denominational affiliation on purpose. The theory seems to be than non-Christians don't identify with denominations. But even if that is true, you aren't helping those folks who really want to know the affiliation of a church before attending. I'd think vacationers who are looking for a church to attend would find the generic signs frustration.

As to church times David, I don't understand a church not advertising their service times unless they really don't want guests.

Do you think one of the reasons CBF churches might not advertise is that they don't consider CBF affiliation to be a denominational affiliation? The idea that the CBF is a fellowship and not a denomination has been pushed pretty hard at times. If it is a fellowship of churches and your church might even be a member of more than one kind of loose group of churches, how much of that do you put on the sign?