Catholicism. hmmmmm

[Jon Estes]

Brothers and Sisters...

What is it about the Catholic church and their beliefs that cause Evangelicals to (in many cases) say they are unsaved?

I grew up hearing about the evil Catholic church and the anti-Christ leadership of its organization. As I am now much older, I hear the same thing being said in some circles about the SBC.

If Catholics believe and teach that...

1 - Jesus is God
2 - He became man
3 - He was born of a virgin
4 - He lived a sinless life
5 - He died on a cross to shed His blood for our sins
6 - He rose from the grave

What is there in their belief system that would cause so many to condemn them to hell so quickly?

[Haruo]

Well, one frequent claim is that they preach/believe in salvation by own merit through works. Another is that they worship saints and their relics, and especially Mary, praying to her (or to other saints) to intercede with God on our behalf, making both the saints and priestly orders out to be mediators between us and God in contravention of Paul's assertion in Scripture that there is one (and only one) God and one (and only one) mediator, the man Christ Jesus. I don't think these arguments hold any water, but they are widespread in certain kinds of evangelical and fundamentalist circles, and some poorly educated Catholics (and occasional well educated ones) appear to support these accusations by their words.

[Jon Estes]

I think I am on safe ground to state that Good Christians can hold some wrong beliefs. What I find in scritpure is that we hold certain beliefs for salvation. What I do not find is if we are saved and hold some off the wall beliefs, we do not lose the salvation.

There are so many Baptist forums out there that seem to shout that a certain set of beliefs must be held or else one is not truly saved.

This is just my perception.

[John Sneed]

Jon,

All that you have said is true as far as it goes. But the Roman "gospel" is entirely works based. Catholics do things to "be in a state of grace" wherein they can perform works that are meritorious for their salvation. And all merits are controlled and dispensed by the Church. If they are right about what it takes to be saved, all who are not Catholic will burn. The gospel as it is preached by Rome is antithetical to the Reformed, Evangelical gospel. We can't both be right.

[Sandy]

I'm pretty sure I could come up with a list of cultural additions to the practice of the Christian faith made by virtually any denomination or church throughout its history that are similar in character to those of the Catholic church. They have a longer history, and that's the difference.

There is a segment among conservative Christians which practices what I call "Salvation by Doctrine." Catholics are by no means the only people influence by a system of works. I'm not really certain that God, in his infinite wisdom and understanding, and his knowledge of the heart, doesn't know the intention, and spiritual condition of the hearts of Catholics who ask for the intercession of Mary or the saints, and answers those prayers regardless of how they are directed.

Salvation, and the condition of a soul, is a matter that is directly connected to acknowledgement of Jesus as the Christ who came in the flesh (I John 4:2-3). There are many practices which the Bible warns against, largely because of the cultural implications that develop around them, but I see no place where there is any power in an act of human will that can reverse salvation.

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

When I was chairman of the Bible department at a Christian school in the Houston area, I had several conversations with the local Priest regarding the content of my classes, since there were several families from his parish who had their kids enrolled in our Southern Baptist based school. I laid out the essentials of our doctrinal statement, and provided the curriculum guide, which included teaching from the perspective of a high view of scripture that included inerrancy and infallibility, and from the perspectives of salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ alone. He didn't have a problem with any of that, and was quite familiar with our doctrine and practice. I asked how they handled differences like the veneration of Mary and the saints, transubstantiation, Papal infallibility vs. the scripture, the works oriented dispensing of sacraments, and other differences of Catholic faith and practice, and he was surprisingly candid in distinguishing what he considered "essentials," which he said we basically agreed on, and "secondary practices" which distinguished them from us. I'm sure he would have been considered quite open minded and "progressive" among his Baslilian order brethren, but he saw the effect of the school's ministry on families in his parish who sent their kids to our school, and didn't believe the differences were insurmountable, nor serious enough to prevent fellowship.

We had some good conversations, developed a good relationship, and I took a risk at one point and invited him to chapel, because I knew he was as born-again as I was. For him the "gospel" was the acknowledgement of Jesus as the savior. Everything else was secondary. I'm sure there are Catholics who are heavily invested in the cultural practices of their church, and dependent on them for salvation. But there are a lot of Baptists who are as well.

[Tim Bonney]

[KeithE]

Personally I like their social justice stances a great deal. And Pope Francis is such an inspiration.

It is past time for a Reunification of the Mainstream Protestants with most of Catholicism. The Evangelicals and Fundamentalist can join if they want to or form their own Pharisaical order.

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

The formal organizations which define denominations aren't necessarily obstacles to Christians being in ministry together, or in fellowship with each other. The doctrinal and ecclesiastical boundaries inside of which local bodies form are, for the most part, based on human standards and interpretations. The broader definition of the "Church" is a spiritual unity that forms around the acknowledgement of Jesus as savior, a "confessing" church, as Bonhoeffer would call it, and that doesn't require the formal order or structure that is mostly of human origin.

We wrap a whole of of personal identity up around our beliefs. I detect, in Timothy's notation about mainline Protestants resisting reunification because of the Catholic practice of not ordaining women to the priesthood, a bit of the exclusivity and rejection on doctrinal grounds that Southern Baptists get bashed here for all the time. It conveys an attitude of "we're not going to work with you because you don't have it right." And those are the kinds of boundaries around which lists of requirements for being included are made.

[Tim Bonney]

[KeithE]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

I think it is great that both of you are open to a more unified Church. I would also like to see a greater unity in the body of Christ.

The snags are going to in the recognition of ministry (ordination, pastoral leadership etc.), our differing understandings of the sacraments/ordinances, and our polity differences.

I know that many Baptists view polity as being simply human made conventions for organizing the church. But a lot of other Christians see their polity as having Biblical roots. Those of us with an episcopal structure wouldn't abandon that for a congregational structure (or visa versa I'm sure.)

Also while many Baptists don't have a system of ordination or recognition of ordination (at least one exception being the ABC/USA which does have a system of ordination recognition) many other denominations do. So what does ordination mean, how someone is ordained, how that is recognized, and what authority that gives the ordained would be big questions to deal with.

The Baptism, Eucharist and Ministry document by the World Council of Church from 1982 tries to address some of these issues. http://www.oikoumene.org/en/resources/d ... -lima-text

When my denomination seeks a "full communion agreement" with another denomination a big part of that is coming to a common understanding about ministry and about the sacraments. In the UMC, ELCA, PCUSA, the RCC and the TEC your ordination has to be accepted by the denomination for you to be able preach, baptize or preside at Holy Communion in their church.

I know Sandy you probably view this as simply human traditions but most of the denominations I've listed don't see it that way.

In any kind of merged denomination how someone becomes a pastor of a local church (congregational election, Presbytery and Session election, appointment by a Bishop etc.) are also huge issues.

I'm not saying we shouldn't seek unity. But everyone isn't going to abandon their historic theology or polity to do that and many non-congregationalist don't believe congregationalism is actually a Biblical model for the Church any more than Baptists think that the episcopacy is a Biblical model.

[Haruo]

With the Catholics in particular, the differing views of the Eucharist are, it seems to me, the biggest stumbling block. I don't care nearly as much about a top-down unification of churches as I do about arriving at a point where we are all welcome and comfortable at each other's communion tables. I like the Lima liturgy, but most Catholic bishops have not been open to it.

[Tim Bonney]