An interesting take on issues

[Dave Roberts]

This certainly provides an interesting take on the gay issue:

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: So Dave, what makes Pavlovitz's venting so interesting. I find nothing new there.

[Dave Roberts]

Ed, we are challenged not to spend our lives shouting at those with whom we do not agree. I grew up in the Virginia mountains where there was a saying, "You catch a lot more flies with sugar than with vinegar." Doesn't that apply to Christian evangelism?

[Ed Pettibone]

[linda]

Ho hum is all I can say. The article seems the usual drivel.

I get tired of reading how all conservative Christians should stop pestering the gays. Never knew anyone who did so. Simply saying the Bible forbids certain sexual acts, some among them involving males with males and females with females, is not pestering or going after anyone.

Sort of matches up with the boring line "If those against gay marriage only knew some gay people". Guess what, got'em in the family and still say certain acts are sin.

Or the line "those pro lifers should adopt if they feel that strongly." Again, BTDT.

Actually, I think the gay lobby is hurting itself constantly pestering conservative Christians. Experience of my own:

Several years ago we were visiting a mining museum in Leadville CO. There is an awesome exhibit of minerals, some that fluoresce under black light and are simply stunning. I told my then around 5 year old grandchild, very quietly, "Isn't it awesome what God has created." And for the record, I grew up around geologists and am old earth, just figure God is the Creator.

A man who at least in manner and appearance would be a fairly safe guess to be what used to be referred to around here as a "flaming gay" overhead the quiet remark and quite literally chased me around the room shouting "then you believe in a mean God who creates bacteria to eat children's brains, do you??" And "I suppose you think the earth was created last Tuesday, don't you??" Finally he started in about it being none of my business where he put his_______grandma don't say that word, I found a docent to handle him, and we left.

I don't for the life of me think all gay men would act that way. So if a gay person has met a rude Christian, well, I'm sorry but I won't be tarred with the same brush.

It is possible to be extremely kind, extremely loving, extremely nonjudgmental, extremely polite, and still say certain sex acts are sin, and among them but not limited to them are sex acts between two males or two females. And it isn't a question of love--don't see the Bible anywhere saying two women or two men cannot love each other deeply. It is a question of sexual morals. Those holding the belief the only sanctioned sex in the Bible is between a male husband and his female wife, with very few allowances for sanctioned or allowable divorce and remarriage, are not pestering anybody.

But aching consciences may be pestering quite a few folks.

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[KeithE]

[Sandy]

I would agree with Linda's perspective regarding what the Bible has to say about sexual sin. In spite of all of the theological gymnastics done by progressive Christians to avoid it, there is a conclusive Biblical perspective on human sexuality. We'll get nowhere here going over that subject again. But Pavlovitz has a very valid point.

The Bible is also pretty conclusive in its teaching that people come to Christ because they are drawn by the Holy Spirit, who brings conviction of sin as well as comfort in grace. Modern evangelical practice has turned the church's function of evangelism into a five-point salesmanship rally that pushes people into an emotional guilt trip down the aisle and into the baptistry, and then drops them to go after the next batch of converts. And there are a lot of pastors and church members who are, in spite of what they say, marking their scorecard and putting it on their resume. And honestly, there are a lot of Christians who act a lot like Muslims, and consider anyone who doesn't respond positively to their presentation of the gospel as an infidel, and they behave in such a way as to communicate that attitude. I'd sure be put off by that. You can't push someone who isn't ready, who hasn't responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit or who might not even know what that is like, or who has weighted the options and made a choice that their free will allows them to make.

On the other hand, the progressive position of accepting same-sex sexual relationships as normal and not sinful denies people the opportunity to be instructed in how to respond to the Spirit's conviction, which is what I see as the primary function of evangelism, and denies them a legitimate path to grace.

What has happened, in our culture, is a serious distortion of the role of the church, and of the Christian faith, in being salt and light. With all that the Bible has to say about the effectiveness of the law in bringing about grace, Christians should have the clearest and deepest understanding of a couple of facts supported by Jesus' teaching. 1. Salvation cannot be produced by strict adherence to the law, hence, using the law to beat sinners over the head, and to attempt to bring them in line with a Christian interpretation of morality will not be successful in accomplishing that end. It will only result in frustration and conflict. 2. The calling of the Christian church to be salt and light in the world demands that its confessing members live and act in such a way as to point to the gospel, and which demonstrates an understanding of a response to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Fighting a culture war and pushing a political agenda based on the philosophical preferences of an institutional church doesn't preach that message and is, in fact, counterproductive to it.

[Dave Roberts]

I'm intrigued by the positions taken here. First, Pavlovitch does not endorse homosexuality or say anything about squaring it with the Bible, unless you see something I do not. Second, I agree that conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit, not the latest evangelism fad. Third, however, the idea that constant blasting to win a culture war will win converts to a faith means that often rather than being salt and light, we are being an impediment to the work of the Spirit. Fourth, I am aware that I have never pastored a church that did not have gay people in it, whether openly or secretly. Some were among the best leaders those churches had. They were not openly recruiting anyone in the church to their perspectives or attractions. Indeed, just the opposite was generally true. Fifth, I confess that had the energy of the church been spent on people rather than on culture wars, churches might be in far better shape today, not because they adopted the culturally popular positions but because they were seen practicing the love of Christ rather than "salvation by separation."

[Ed Pettibone]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

[KeithE]

[linda]

I don't live in a world where I see no gay pestering. But often what is labeled "pestering" is simply not agreeing to be affirming.

To wit now there is serious consideration of declaring those unwilling to say gay sex is ok as suffering from mental illness.

I would also suggest that many of those frightened, sleepless, depressed gay people are in the same boat as frightened, depressed, sleepless liars, thieves, adulterers, fornicators, murderers, embezzlers, alcoholics, any variety addict and idolaters. Their conscience is still functioning and they will be miserable as long as they define their personhood by that sin.

But hey--it is true I've never seen any of those others petition a church affirm and bless their sin. (I do consider unscriptural divorce a sin, and have seen churches fail there, but not with a highly publicized movement targeting the church to affirm it.) I have the latter with same sex unions.

Sounds to me more like the gay movement is pestering the church which keeps swatting them away.

[Tim Bonney]

Well Linda I'm glad you have such a long list of people who you get such Christian joy out of judging and lumping together. I'm really not sure you and I are in the same religion. Jesus said a lot more about grace, forgiveness and love than he ever said about your laundry list of sinners.

I'm pretty well convinced that even if I could prove 100% conclusively from the Bible that God is just fine with people being gay, straight or otherwise that folks like you would deny it to their grave because at the base of what you are saying is that you like law more than grace.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Dave Roberts]

Ed, what I am reading is not that there is no tolerance for the position you or Linda have taken. Rather, I see that you offer little tolerance for disagreement with your position. For me, I am trying to nuance a position between the extremes. Lists of sins include certain homosexual behaviors in the first century--no argument there. The question becomes, what behavior was being condemned. I suspect, though I dare not dogmatize this, that the Apostle Paul was addressing the excesses of the Roman court in which the Caesars kept young boys as sex slaves, children from the ages of perhaps nine to fifteen. Certainly, this was depravity at the highest levels and was emulated by the rich in Roman society. From there, I believe we are left to try to find how we will apply this to what exists in our culture. I am not ready to do gay marriages nor am I going to stand and condemn each of these. It's much harder to be nuanced than absolute.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Dave Roberts]

[Ed Pettibone]

[KeithE]

[Ed Pettibone]