If you couldn't be....

[Sandy]

[Chris]

[Haruo]

Yes, an unprogrammed Quaker meeting is an interesting experience. So in a related but quite different way is an Evangelical Friends service, where there is all the usual programmed stuff you'd find in a Baptist bulletin, but with maybe ten minutes in which no one talks unless led by the Spirit. I think I might like to bounce back and forth betwixt the twain.

[Tim Bonney]

I attended a Quaker funeral. The Eulogy was unprogrammed. It was an interesting experience.

[Michael Wrenn]

[Sandy]

In that kind of environment, where people are used to the spontaneous movement of the Holy Spirit, I prefer the spontaneity. Planning in that kind of environment can interfere with God showing up. That's not to say that all planned worship is devoid of the presence of God, but sometimes, it takes complete expectation and dependence to bring about God's presence.

[Michael Wrenn]

[Sandy]

[Michael Wrenn]

[Sandy]

As far as theology goes, I share a common belief in the non-sacramental view of believer's baptism by immersion as a testimony of salvation, the non-sacramental, symbolic view of communion, the belief in the dual divine/human nature of Jesus, in their interpretation of "separation" particularly as it applies to church and civil authority (free church in a free state), in their view of congregational polity and communal responsibility, and in their view of scripture, including their interpretation of the relationship of the Old Testament to the New Testament, and their acceptance of Biblical authority. I am particularly attracted to their pacifist perspective.

As far as the church culture of the Mennonites in particular, and of most Anabaptists in general, I think they've developed a practice which "majors on minors," and have developed a system of distinguishing themselves from the "world" based on superficial actions and practices. They have "baptized", so to speak, some historical agrarian cultural practices which are focused on dress and outward appearances, and have made them marks of distinction when it comes to faith practice, and they tend to be quite judgmental of those who do not follow the same practice. And their worship incorporates more ritual and restriction, with little room for spontaneity or Spiritual moving.

[Tim Bonney]

There is a lot of variation in the Mennonite family. What Sandy is describing describes Mennonites that I knew in Indiana but not so much that I know in this part of the country. There is less of a connection to the agrarian lifestyle and less of a connection to plain dress and those kind of distinctions. But I've certainly seen the kind of culture among some Mennonites that Sandy describes.

Given my current views on the sacraments etc, the only think that I'm attracted to in the Mennonite church tradition is pacifism. I'm not a pacifist. But I have a lot of respect for their constant support of pacifism.

[Haruo]

Any thoughts on the Mennonite Brethren? One superficial, overgeneralized thumbnail I've heard is "They are Mennonites who dress normal."

[Haruo]

And there are still some unprogrammed Quakers who are as much into plain dress, and using "thee" when King James would say "thou", as any Mennonites you could point to.

[Michael Wrenn]

[Michael Wrenn]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

I have a pastor friend who is a Mennonite. From what I've discovered it isn't as autonomous as you'd think. While the local church can do pretty much what they like the ordained Mennonite clergy have to subscribe to the confession of faith of the denomination. If they don't their ordination can be removed. That is a bit different from the Baptists part of the "free church" tradition.

[Haruo]

Some Mennonites, on the other hand, have a lay, rotating pastorate chosen by the Holy Ghost through the drawing of straws, like unto the way God chose the replacement for Judas Iscariot...

[Michael Wrenn]

[Sandy]

Most of the Mennonites around here--and note that this part of Western Pennsylvania is somewhat of a "heartland" for traditional Mennonites and a lot of old order Amish--do not practice any kind of ordination, or utilize any kind of clergy credentials. In fact, they disdain the use of terms like "clergy" and "laity". Pastoral responsibilities are divided up and shared among men in the congregation, in roles that are termed as either "elder" or "deacon" though these titles reflect specific duties, and aren't treated like an office. I suppose there is some sort of discerning process regarding who serves in those roles and how they are chosen.

Not having had much experience with Quakers directly, I can only imagine that there would be some sort of distinction between their "liberal" branch and the more "conservative" meetings. I know the few who meet in the home across the road from me are quite thorough in their Biblical knowledge. Their emphasis on the Holy Spirit is not unlike the Pentecostals, in a theological way, but much different in terms of practice. I can see where their literal interpretation of principles of scripture, particularly their pacifism, and their social positions, which are extremely humane and accepting, could lead to one thinking they were liberal. I'm curious enough to engage my neighbor in conversation about it, but I haven't heard anything that would indicate to me they are "liberal" in the classical definition of it, or even in the Baptist definition of it.

[Shawn Koester]

[Sandy]

Since this discussion began a while back, I've been to worship twice at an unprogrammed Quaker meeting in Philadelphia, one whose existence dates back to the late 1600's. It's a fairly good sized gathering, and there weren't long periods of silence either time. It was, in fact, very engaging, and very "spiritual" for lack of a better word. It was rather amazing that the various elements which occurred, brought into the service by participants, all seemed to fit together, and provide a meaningful experience that didn't seem to last as long as it actually did.