Is the value of an MDiv worth the three years $$ and effort?

[Dave Roberts]

[Dave Roberts]

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Dave, when you say of one church where you did an interim, "They want to pay something in the mid-$30,000 range plus benefits. That speaks volumes for the desire to pay for what they want."

I am inclined to ask, what do those volumes say to you. they say very little to me. In my NYS role as a member of the Capital Area Baptist Association Enhancement Team, who's primary task is assisting Churches in finding Pastors. That "plus benefits" can be a small auto allowance and partial reimbursement on healthcare, bringing the total to $35,000 OR it may Include housing,(paronages with Fair Market Rental Values of $600 to $1800.00 month), pluss all utilities with telephone and TV, lawn care and snow removal, plus full health care insurance, auto allowance at the Federal Government allowable rate, a generous allowance for continuing education as well as reimbursement for expenses to attend denominational activities (Convention's and training, at the regional, associational and National levels) and a specified book allowance and retirement contribution which works up to around $75,000. Most new Seminary grads will jump at that, even some who have 10 or 20 years in the pastorate.
And Oh yes 2 to 4 weeks of paid vacation during which the church pays $100.00 to $150.00 for some one to preach on those Sunday's.

We also have churches that offer 20 to 25 thousand Total! Most of those start out looking for some one with other income and at least a couple years of seminary basics. they often settle for a bi-vocational with some sort of bible training certification. Some of these churches expect the preacher to pay any one who fills in.

[Tim Bonney]

Ed there is a big difference between cash take home pay and total money the church spends to have a pastor.

If I ask my Father who worked for Boeing what his salary was he doesn't include what Boeing paid for his health insurance or reimbursable business expenses or his pension. He would tell you what his take home pay is.

One of the things that keeps some church people thinking the pastor is making a lot of money is when the don't know the difference between employer costs such as insurance etc. and salary. They compare their salary to the pastors entire compensation package and think they are comparing apples to apples when they usually had no idea what their company spent on their benefits and don't include that.

Certainly an accountable auto reimbursement is not "pay" or "salary." It is reimbursement for business expenses that the business (church) should pay for and not the employee (pastor.) Just like the guy who works for a painting company doesn't pay for the paint he paints houses with the company pays for it.

If you have many pastors only making $30,000 take home pay in New York I don't know how they are paying their bills.

[William Thornton]

[Tim Bonney]

[William Thornton]

The figure is (salary + housing allowance + fair rental value of parsonage) = $61,697 overall average SBC senior pastor compensation. Package average $74,679 adds insurance and retirement.

Averages for what I would call an normal-sized church with FT pastor (budget = $150k) is around $48k and $55k respectively.

The data are skewed upward by higher response rates for higher paying churches. LifeWay, i presume, figures that erring upward will be helpful to clergy who can quote these figures to their finance committee or deacons.

[Tim Bonney]

Thanks William. That helps me to get a picture on what is usual.

I don't know what the average salary is right now in the UMC or our conference.

We do have a conference minimum salary that has to be paid to clergy who are full-time and "in full connection" with the conference. For 2016 it will be $40,293+ $400 for each year of prior service up to an additional $4000 after ten years. This represents cash salary and could include salary and a utilities allowance.

That figure does not include housing. United Methodists assume you have a parsonage. If you don't then you have to provide a housing allowance.

There is also a formula for housing allowances and I'm thinking the minimum is something like $14,000 a year or so. (that is an estimate since I don't have the formula in front of me.) Frankly the UMC discourages housing allowances since we are itinerant and would have to buy and sell houses frequently.

So I think to match the SBC way of figuring it you'd add the salary to the allowance/or fair rental value and you'd get something like $54,293 as the minimum UMC pastor serving first year or a minimum of $58, 293 at 10 years.

Notice, those are the minimums. After ten years of service I'd expect that fewer and fewer pastors are paid at minimum.

[Jon Estes]

I posted earlier about the church and their non awareness of the seminary, degree and cost.

I think there is another factor in the equation not being discussed.

The seminaries have forgotten about the church (SBC speaking) and what it takes to effectively pastor a growing trend of older, very traditional, gonna be hard work ministries.

I do believe there is a mindset of teaching the students to:

1 - Fight the good fight of faith at any cost as being taught.
2 - Do not be afraid of being fired, it only betters you.
3 - Your theological training is of greater importance than the people you will serve.

Then there is a mindset to be have huge cash reserves. Please make tuition payment below.

[Dave Roberts]

When I have talked with churches who wanted to provide a "package amount," I have always insisted they break it down as follows:

1. Direct Income
Salary
Housing
Social Security Reimbursement

2. Fringe Benefits
Health Insurance
Retirement
Life Insurance
Disability Insurance

3. Ministry Related Expenses (costs of doing business)
Travel (accountable reimbursement)
Conventions, Conferences (accountable reimbursement)
Continuing Education (accountable reimbursement)
Other Ministry-Related Expenses (accountable reimbursement)

Such a structure immediately separates the ministry income from the church's cost of doing business.

[Jon Estes]

[KeithE]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[KeithE]

[Haruo]

Is he in Iowa? The minimums Tim cited are from his local conference, and may not apply at all elsewhere in the country/world.

[Tim Bonney]

[Dave Roberts]

The crisis in church finance is one fueled by the passing of the World War II generation--the builders. If the statistics are correct, it takes three Boomers (my generation) to replace one Builder. The estimate is that it will take 4 to 5 Gen X folks and 5 Millennials to get the same giving levels. Some of this represents the fact that we have not taught God's people to be generous, but it also reflects the stagnation of wages for the Millennials who are still at their starting salary levels. Also, it reflects that many higher income earners in churches are not engaged in the kinds of generosity that previous generations shared or that they are putting their giving in a wider number of pots. Without a rebirth of a valuation of the church at a much higher level, the future does not look good for a well-prepared ministry.

I am writing as the parent of a 2011 seminary graduate and one who is thankful he was able to finish school without great debt. He and his wife are both engaged in ministries, he with a church and she with the regional food bank, and neither pays at the levels offered in the for-profit sector for those who carry similar responsibilities. I realize that, just as has been true for my wife and me, it is necessary to supplement ministerial income to survive. (I have personally worked as a DJ, doing a weekly on-air shift while pastoring a church. I also have designed sound systems for churches.) I see a lot of tentmaking ahead for today's M.Div graduates.

[Dave Roberts]

An additional word--my degree was absolutely worth the sweat and tears to get it. My seminary experience was great preparation for my years ahead. The experience has been one on which I have relied across the past 43 years. In many ways, it was most valuable for the tools provided in Bible study, in psychological understandings of church people, in sensitivity to culture and cultural shifts, and in helping me know how little I knew in the vastness of what is known. That preparation has been invaluable.

There are other options to directly racing through three years +/- toward an M.Div. My current pastor was engaged in seminary studies for six years to complete an M.Div., working at the same time. That is certainly an option for those who are close enough to attend classes at seminaries or who can do part of their work online.

[Tim Bonney]

Right Dave. Any of us could have made more money in a secular profession. That isn't a complaint, it is just the reality of ministry. What I appreciate is when I'm in a church that wants to do the best it can for its pastor and staff even if it isn't a lot.

But, I also know churches that want to just compensate the pastor and staff with the lowest they can get away with. Those churches tend not to keep pastors and staff long because no one wants to work at a church where people don't care about you.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

I know there are other service professions that are certainly not high paid. Honestly pay hasn't been a big issue for me and I've never really been one to fish for raises etc. If I have enough for ends to me I've generally been fine with that.

To me job satisfaction, feeling like you are doing something valuable, and getting along well with your church are at the top of the list.

[Dave Roberts]

Tim, I second what you said. I have been thankful to be paid for doing what I love. I have never been overpaid, but we have not suffered great want nor have we lacked necessities. Okay, we haven't always had what we wanted, but we have been blessed. i would not give five cents some days for what I have done for over 40 years, but I can't think of anywhere else i could live out my sense of calling.