Is the value of an MDiv worth the three years $$ and effort?

[William Thornton]

I suppose the question would have answers in two streams:

1. Is the perceived value to a minister or potential minister worth three years of post-grad study and all the ancillary costs?

2. Do churches see the value of an MDiv reflected in their clergy staff such that they insist on a minister who has or is obtaining the degree?

In regard to SBC ministers and churches I would answer "no" to both, although the MDiv is still the degree of preference, so I think.

[Haruo]

[Tim Bonney]

I think we all used to call the entry level theological degree a B.D. The history as I understand it is that we changed it to an M.Div. to appear more similar to professions that have a required professional degree that is a Master degree.

Maybe someone more involved in seminary education could chime in?

The M.Div. as I experienced it is a hybrid animal in that most Masters degrees are more like a two year program but seminaries still insisted on three years even though everyone had to have a four year BA or BS to apply.

So for churches that want a seminary trained pastor it leads to no less than 7 years of education. That is all well and good if you can afford it but it is becoming pretty pricy. Many denominations don't have the blessings of the denomination footing part of the bill as in the SBC.

In the UMC system (ignore if you aren't interested) It then takes you at least an additional two years as a Probationary Elder before you can be ordained. So now you are up to nine years of time invested in education and training.

I'm a big supporter of pastoral education. But I also believe we are going to have to find ways to make the price more reasonable and maybe the timing shorter in order for younger people to be able to afford to get an education and still start out pastoring a small low paying church.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: I would hate to see any reduction in the the required education to enter the pastorate. And if half of the Baptist who take cruises every few year would instead give that money to seminary scholarships I think perhaps the problem could be solved. The Church I was attending when I returned to SBTS did give me a substantial gift to help me through the first year. That was an SBC church and Since I entered under the 89-91 Catalog, all students paid the rate the Distinction between SBC and non SBC students did not begin until after I had finished.

I have encountered a couple pastors who started their ministerial education while members of Burnt Hills BC, And they tell me of substantial assistance from the church. I received my M.A. in Christian Ed in 92 and Trudy completed her B.A. in 95
M.Div. in 98 and M.A. with 2 years at Hebrew Union in 2000. And last month it was all paid off. Of course we where not raising kids. We had done that. All of our kids have incomes better than or quite close to ours.

[Tim Bonney]

I also hate to see the level of education drop. But I would be all for the system of education being modified to give pastors the education they need at a cost much considerable less than the current system.

I think use of online tools for education is going to be part of the key to making all this cheaper for people.

[William Thornton]

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

[William Thornton]

Ed, I think your insights are valuable in this.

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Jon Estes]

A quick look through the classifieds for pastorless churches you will find most churches (in the SBC) are wanting a man with a MDiv.

1 - Many of these churches cannot pay a salary which will help the person get out of their student loan.
2 - I imagine most of these churches have no clue what it takes to get a MDiv - financially.
3 - I imagine that most of these churches have no clue to what the education gives the person applying for the pastor job
4 - I know many churches who want an MDiv Pastor do not want a man that can take that learning and apply it to the church growth principles the church can use and grow by.
5 - I imagine the desire for a pastor with a MDiv is due to someone somewhere telling them that they need a SBC seminary graduate with a MDiv to really get quality.

Since I graduated when the tuition was a 500.00 matriculation fee for the whole semester, I think the prices are to high and the direct education to better a pastor is to low.

jle

[Dave Roberts]

[Jon Estes]

[William Thornton]

Dave, what's the total budget for the church who has a mid-30s salary?

[William Thornton]

I'm a little out of touch bur I think most churches that advertise in the state paper or BT or similar are above average budget and attendance churches. I speculate that a degree other than an Mdiv is acceptable and not specified by most pastorless churches of average size. (I'm talking SBC here...most CBF churches are larger and wealthier than average)

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

[Tim Bonney]

[Haruo]

Fremont licensed a few people during my time there. I was not one of them, but that didn't keep me from an occasional preaching gig, which led some of my friends in AA to think I was not merely licensed (which nobody has ever heard of) but ordained. One of the three licensees I can think of went on to seminary.