Is the value of an MDiv worth the three years $$ and effort?

[Jon Estes]

[Tim Bonney]

No problem JLE, I'm just wanting to make sure I'm understanding what you are saying.

[Tim Bonney]

Maybe this is another thread but I think it is related.

Where do you see the church going in the next twenty years? Where do you see denominations headed?

One of the growing trends in the UMC is a return to more and more lay involvement and licensed ministers serving in pulpits in small towns. We are also seeing a return to larger circuits (one pastor sharing more and more churches) and also a number of churches being pastored by retired pastors.

What trends do you see happening in Baptist life over the next few years and then over the next few decades that will effect the way we need to do clergy education or think about ministry in general?

Just to get it started, I think the days of full-time pastoring are nearly over in most denominations unless pastors are full-time in some kind of sharing arrangement with multiple churches. I can see full-time clergy moving more to the role of consultation or administration while the lay people have to take on more and more of the daily ministry of the church.

I see this happening because the money just isn't there to pay full-time clergy too many years down the road. What do you think?

[Dave Roberts]

I see a greater role for bivocational ministers in the churches. There have always been bivocational pastors among Baptists, but the economics may dictate more teacher/preachers, accountant/preachers, lawyer/preachers, denominational staff serving churches, and other arrangements. I'm afraid that educational levels for ministers, at least in theological training, may well begin to fall. Interim ministry will become more of a specialty as more churches will have longer gaps between full-time ministers. I'm already seeing more part-time church staff ministers and fewer full-time staffers.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

Ed, just to clear up some things about mainliners, the UCC, the DOC, and the ABC are considered mainline. That means three out of the seven churches in the mainline are congregationalists.

I guess for me it depends on what you mean by "evangelical" and "progressive." A lot of people who used to be labeled fundamentalists now called themselves evangelicals because it sounds nicer. If you mean the centrist theology that I see among moderate Baptists as "evangelical" I can buy that. But they'd prefer the term "historic Baptist" to Evangelical given who now calls themselves Evangelical.

As to denominational futures, I don't see congregationalists denominations doing any better than connectional churches in keeping membership, numbers, or whatever. We are all losing membership. Church are folding in all denominations.

I do agree that the future of the church won't be found in buildings. I don't know what this thread has to do with LGBT issues. Do you see a connection? I certainly don't.

[Jon Estes]

Tim - This is from the post I said I would speak further to.

I do believe there is a mindset of teaching the students to:

1 - Fight the good fight of faith at any cost as being taught.

As a student at Criswell College from 1979-1982, the time was interesting and exciting for me. No need to rehash the atmosphere, the timing and location should define this adequately. As we were being told the "Evils of Liberalism" (no need to dig further on EoL, that is a subject for another day if warranted) the thought was gleaning was that liberals were in every pew across the SBC and they had to be removed. We were the front line soldiers in God's war and all wars have casualties. PLEASE NOTE: This is the way I read the tea leaves of the dynamics on being a student at CC during those early days.

What I lost in the translation (and did not hear any students speak differently) was that this was not a pew problem but a education problem. This was a problem infecting the whole SBC. We were not taught to sit and talk (my take) but to stand and fight. We saw in the school leadership the examples to follow. As they did it on the national scene, I think many students honed their skills for this on the local scene.

2 - Do not be afraid of being fired, it only betters you.

We were directly told, by a well known BC leaders who was at the school at that time, that if you are not fired at least once you are not doing you job right.

3 - Your theological training is of greater importance than the people you will serve.

I once had a problem where the church I was serving needed their minister present and some important things needed to be done at the school. When I spoke to one of the professors (who is a big name in the SBC) of the best way to approach this, I was told directly to ask if I was called to go to school or minister to the people at the church. When I figure that out, do that. No help in how to meet both needs. This one event really hit and hurt me the most of any other part of my journey.

oh, The professor refused to give me an extension if I failed to show up at the class.

[Tim Bonney]

Jon,

Thanks for the detailed response! You had a very different seminary experience than I did. I attended SBTS for a year and then finished my MDiv. at MBTS. We were certainly impacted by the fighting going on in the SBC. But of all the professors I had at both schools I can't think of one that might qualify as a theological liberal.

I don't want to or intend to start another liberals in the SBC versus conservatives in the SBC argument. That is water under the bridge. But I still remember a religious news reporter (whom I can't find a reference for unfortunately) who said that, "in the SBC it looks like one group of conservatives arguing with another group of conservatives over who is the most conservative."

The further I've gotten away from the SBC into more middle of the road denominations like the ABC/USA and now the UMC the more I find that statement to be true.

It was never suggested to me that it was a good idea to get myself fired. Though I do have to say that many pastors I know have pastored at least one church that either fired them or pressured them out. IMHO local churches can be both the closest thing to heaven on earth and at times the closest thing to the Devil himself than any other institution in the world. There is no way around it. Some "Christians" are just mean and nasty. And they drive well meaning pastors right out of ministry.

As to the last, I never had anyone suggest I should put my training ahead of my church. I'm sorry you had that experience.

[KeithE]

[Dave Roberts]

[Jerry_B]

Seminary education is valuable and needed. But the holy grail of the M.Div feels more and more outdated. Not so much because it isn't a useful degree, but because it seems so very disconnected from the realities of what happens at the local church/parish level. I mean, really when is the last time someone came into your office and asked you a question about the tense of Greek word or was interested in the thoughts of Polycarp about Gnosticism? Being able to dig through the Greek tenses is fine for academic work, but it slides way down the list for a pastor.

I envision a five year bachelor/ master degree called Christian Ministry - English and writing, combined with bible and religion, finishing off with business and leadership classes. A.A in English; B.A. in religion; M.A. in leadership.

If I were counseling someone going into ministry today, using the current structures available, I would say a bachelors in bible/religion and a masters in business would be way more useful than chasing down an M.Div.

[Tim Bonney]

Jerry_B those are some sound ideas. While I do use Greek occasionally in my sermon preparation more classes in business administration and leadership would have been far more helpful in the long run.

[linda]

Can a pew sitting grandma from the hinterlands make a curriculum suggestion? We seem to be getting an awful lot of guys out here that are absolutely brilliant and very well educated but who.....can't preach. Can't go from point 1 to point 2 in a straight line. Don't know how to end a sermon. Do not communicate effectively when behind the pulpit.

We tend to love'em to pieces because they have a heart for God, take loving care of their people, and one on one teach us oodles we would never have known otherwise. But it makes it so frustratingly hard when we witness to people, get them to come to church, and they won't come back because, well, um, you get the drift--won't put themselves through that but once.

Could maybe public speaking skills get a wee bit more practice?

[William Thornton]

Love the straightforward comment, Linda. "Can't preach...go from point 1 to point 2 in a straight line...don't know how to end a sermon."

Priceless...especially with the "we love 'em to pieces [anyway]"

May I ask: Have you or anyone in the church ever made an attempt to approach one of these young guys and offer (in a more diplomatic way, I presume) feedback and advice? If so, what was the reaction?

I'm working on an article along those lines and would love to hear from you or anyone (on either lay or clergy side) on it.

[Dave Roberts]

[Tim Bonney]

[Dave Roberts]

One of the missing elements of seminary student life is the preaching element. Many of us were privileged to serve student pastorates for one to three years while we were students. Those were patient people in my world. The experience of preaching twice on Sunday and doing a Bible study every Wednesday night was a great experience for me. There are very few student churches these days. My son was a seminary student from 2008-11 and served as a PT youth and children's minister. He preached for that church perhaps six times in his stay with them. The experience of preaching to a congregation is so much different from preaching to a class, as Tim pointed out.

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

I get a smile on my face when I see your statement, Timothy, about serving in an "urban" environment. Not being very familiar with Iowa at all, I guess I have that stereotypical perspective of it being rolling hills and cornfields. I don't doubt that the characteristics of Sioux City fall into that classification (urban), but when I think of Iowa, even Des Moines doesn't bring to mind images of an urban environment. After having served in inner city St. Louis, just off Natural Bridge Rd. and St. Louis Avenue on the northside, and then by the Darst-Webbe housing project on Lafayette Ave. near the Soulard Market, "inner city" and "urban" create that image in my mind.

All kidding aside, though, a lot of seminary grads aren't really aiming for the urban church environment, either. When they talk about going back to the "city," they mean the burbs. Urban ministry isn't easy, either, and these days, those churches also wind up with young, inexperienced pastors.

[linda]

Thanks for the kind replies--I felt like I was treading in dangerous water bringing up actually being able to preach.

We are not getting young men, but older men for whom preaching is a second career. But still little actual practice preaching. Wise? YES! Loving? YES! Just not skilled communicators.

And yes, we have tried approaching them. One thing that does seem to help a tad is cell phones. Anyone can record the service, and if you can get the pastor to go alone to the church, put the last week's service on youtube on his laptop, and "attend" and hear himself preach....it can bring about some change.

I know I'm old, but I do remember when we discovered men who could preach and then sent them off to be educated. Worked wonderfully! But this thing of take a high school kid, send him to 7-14 years of schooling, never having preached, and expecting him to come out a great preacher just isn't working. Edited to add: these are the mentoring pastors to our second career guys who are not getting trained to preach.