Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:08 pm

Sandy wrote:
Ed Pettibone wrote:
Sandy wrote:This book is just a collection of memoirs from the perspective of the writer, mostly second-hand, and years ago. For moderate Baptists, who claim high respect for scholarship, and value affirmation, this kind of gossipy reminiscing is out of character. Oh, what a field day they'd have if conservatives put forth something like this, and then followed it up with a second volume written by the next generation.

I don't think all of the moderate recollections of "the controversy" are as accurate and truthful as they claim. There were some pretty unchristian tactics and personal kingdom building and turf protecting tactics committed by the moderate, pre-1979 SBC leadership that were not examples of ideal purity. If these folks are finding their new Baptist identity and ventures to be less than satisfying, perhaps they could take up scuba diving or underwater basketweaving. :D


Ed; Sandy, you have repeated your opinion of Kell's latest on/from the "exiled", some of us are still waiting for you to cite something from the book to support that opinion. Honestly, I have seen nothing from you that would persuade me that you have even seen the book.

Using your same logic when you claim that "There were some pretty unchristian tactics and personal kingdom building and turf protecting tactics committed by the moderate, pre-1979 SBC leadership that were not examples of ideal purity ", you are talking about what you perceive from 36 years ago. So why should others not write about their perceptions?


Sandy: Having a conversation about it is one thing, Ed. Putting it in book form sends quite another message. These are the children of the "exiles" so much of the content isn't even first hand.

I bought the book mainly to read Stephen's essay. And as I said, he uses his expulsion from the Collinsville Baptist Church as a backdrop for some of the other themes he hangs his hat on, though I'll say that he did stay fairly focused on that theme, and didn't drift too far down his normal "The John Birchers are responsible for all the evil in the world including the SBC" trail. He basically took the path that he was trying to educate and enlighten the small town Alabama hicks in the Collinsville Baptist Church about what really happened in the SBC, they didn't appreciate it, so he eventually got the boot.

I read a few of the others that I recognized by name. I'll be happy to loan you my copy rather than have you pay the full price for it, but right now, it is making its way through the postal system to William's mailbox in Georgia.


Ed: How is it so different to have a conversation about the takeover and a group of individual putting how it impacted their lives in a book. And when you mentioned names of the ones you read you used only Steven's first name the rest you used only last names and Pollard was the only one that was anything like unique enough to give a hint of who you where talking about.

There was one other that if I guessed correctly, I might say without reading their chapter, I would not be surprised if they came across as having a chip on their shoulder. So what if their view is second handed, that may explain their pain.
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby William Thornton » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:19 pm

Got the book from Sandy...many thanks. Went straight to Stephen's eight pages and about a thousand name drops therein. My take:

I've read all of Stephen's stuff here in years past and enjoyed the sanitized, edited, condensed version in the book; alas, it has little to do with the book's theme of the Southern Baptist holy war. Fox has a story that can stand on its own. It is not the story, however, of a second generation moderate whose parents were purged from the SBC much less a story about how the "legacy" of the SBC takeover/takeback caused one individual to be excluded from his small town Alabama church. It is the story of one individual church member taking considerable and frequent actions without regard to the congregation as a whole and without regard to what most of us in church life would call normal and expected boundaries of behavior and being excluded as a result.

Stephen suffered, I don't question that, by his exclusion from his Momma's church. It is a self-inflicted penalty. I would probably like for Stephen to be in my Sunday School class where I am not averse to being quizzed, interrogated, questioned, or challenged. I can handle all that Bircher nonsense (I'd tell Stephen privately that he should take his Bircher stuff somewhere else, or else) and name dropping and, unless he had a class death wish, I would accommodate him. But if he wanted the whole business of Bible teaching, preaching, church business to be about him, then he might be happier elsewhere.

The piece is about Fox. It is not about Collinsville Baptist Church. It is not about any carryover from the Conservative Resurgence. It is a bet I can neither win nor lose but I'd bet that if there were no SBC Conservative Resurgence, if there were no Paul Pressler and Paige Patterson, if there were no changing of the guard in denominational leadership, Stephen would find a way to irritate his church family. There are many things for which an intelligent, energetic, intense individual can be a gadfly. Stephen is the master of that role.

No question that he is in exile and I sympathize with him in being separated from his Momma's church. The narrative that this is some legacy of the SBC is nonsense. Stephen, as I have seen here, is quite capable of managing that himself.

That said, I rather liked reading about it. Stephen, when the mental hemmorhages and stream-of-consciousness writing are kept in check, can tell a good story. I wish he had included more of what he put here over the years - the "Gospel dog," more on the "liberry" and all that.
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As Criswell said to to Stewart A Newman

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:56 pm

When Criswell sent Newman back the letter Newman had written him in 68 about the race baiting speech in 56 to the South Carolina Pastor's conference and I paraphrase,: I don't quite get what you are saying William, but if you mean well, then God Bless you.

That said, a couple bullet points William should know by now.

1.My Momma walked out on Charles Stanley's Convention sermon in Atlanta in 86 and I'm gald she did.

1B: See Bob Allens' review of Ex Gens at Abpnews.com; also George Mason of Wilshire Baptists has a different appreciation of Ex Gens than William and for that matter Big daddy Weave


2. Thornton was a member of Adrian Roger's Bellevue Baptist in 79 and I think a scholar at Mid America when the Takeover started so that explains a lot right there.

3. If you look at any given page of Big Daddy's bio of James Dunn, you are likely to see as many names as I have on any given page of my 8 page pilgrimage.

4. I was a very active member of Collinsville Baptist for 8 years before the poop hit the fan, in many factes from the choir, to bus ministry, to volleyball ministry which was a carnival at times, to several youth trips to Jekyll Island and some ministries at 2 am mostly with the preacher's sons then in High school and their friends exploring the back road of DeeKalb county unauthorized.

5William must do the background education, read some stories and have an awareness of of Singleton's Half Mammals of Dixie and see the Movie and have post viewing chat with Jerry Vines of the White Ribbon to get full effect of my story.

6. I will let others read my eight pages. I talk about myself some to define how my expectations of what it was to be a baptist might me a little different from the one deacon who said about MLKing near his birthday in 88: "I say we dig.....[vulgar word deleted] and Shoot him again, and another deacon who cussed me loudly to my face cause I question his public derogaroty remakrs in a City Council meeting about Hispanics.

So there was a lot the two deacons the three to five women sicced on me overlooked when they mighta had better prospects for a churchin.

And six, those two deacons, Jackie Myers, former Elementary School principal whose sharp daughter went on an Emmaus Walk; and his brother Donnie, a former Asst School supe both told me they voted for me in the vote of May 28.

7. I was on the way to have lunch with Dr. Thornton himself the week preceeding the May 28 vote when I had car trouble outside Iva, South Carolina. So Thornton is part of the story too, but his name is not in the index of Exiled Generations cause I didn't mention him. But I'm about to blog about him and Jerry Vines, the Bircher :) :brick: s and that whole cauldron.
Last edited by Stephen Fox on Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Thornton's all stars

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:35 pm

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Thornton's All Stars; and My Takeaway

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:51 pm

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Palm Sunday 2000 for Thornton and other detractors

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:46 pm

see my latest entry in Collinsvile History
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Jon Appleton, pastor emeritus, FBC Athens

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:02 pm

In Thorton's neighborhood.

Jon's extended family member in Collinsville now has the book in her possession. Her and Jon's Great Grandfather adorns, portrait adorns the Overstreet Room of Collinsville Baptist Church as a founding pastor in the late 1800s!
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"Elegant collection; Exquisite narrative"

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:57 pm

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Cards were stacked against me: Know Alabama

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri May 22, 2015 3:00 pm

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Sandy on Will Campbell

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:29 am

I think I did mention Will in my Essay. I hope most of you know by now ExiledGenerations has a Facebook page I hope many of you have seen. Several folks in Collinsville have now read my contribution.

Meanwhile here is a definitive piece on Will Campbell in case there is something Sandy missed about his life.

http://www.progressive.org/news/2013/06 ... d%E2%80%9D
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Daley on Redistricting and the MOrgans

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:27 pm

The Fox Saga took a new twist today with a review of the book on the pernicious and evil plan of the GOP that was abetted by Collinsville Pastor John Morgan's son Joseph.

That was what I was up against in Collinsville, a Francis Schaeffer ideology in the pastor and his wife with Joseph abetting a policy of weakening political power for blacks and Hispanics while the UVA, Yale and Duke Brothers were struck mute.

Will link soon the New Yorker review, an easy google with Rat copulator in the title. BTW that is the nickname for Roger Stone, who Richard Land and Ronnie Floyd have signed on with in the Manafort Trump campaign.
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Exegesis on Rat Ffin

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:45 pm

Joseph Morgan embraced and worked to help bring about the Mike Hubbard implementation in Alabama named Bleaching there. Helped elect Phil Williams as Colliinsville now is sliced and diced into 5 districts. His parents had PhillWilliams Yard sign in their yard and now the Dad in his 40th plus year in the town has a faith column in Joseph Morgan's weekly that fronts as the Tea Party rag of the region

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/ ... istricting
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Books gets solid recommend in this chat

Postby Stephen Fox » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:00 am

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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Chris » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:52 pm

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGH!
Jesus paid the price for me and everybody.
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Sandy » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:11 am

Chris wrote:AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGH!


Excellent article there, from the New Yorker.The other citation, Read the Spirit, also has some interesting points and discussion. The list of names there look like a lot of emerging church folks. I've been to several conferences where many of them were either general session speakers or breakout session leaders. It's a purely personal observation, but I think those people are on to something. The article in the blog that Stephen references is a book review of Doug Pagitt's book Flipped. You can read the review to get the gist of his thesis. He mentions Carl Kell's book and a reference to a statement during a conversation. Pagitt cites Kell's perspective of what he think has happened in the SBC with the idea of "transactional faith" after reading the book, and says, "Then, I interviewed Carl and he describes the old-school appeal of being born again and getting baptized as “fire insurance.” In other words: Better do it—or you’ll burn in Hell." Citing Kell's opinion isn't exactly a recommendation of the book, nor is it a conclusion of what actually happened in the SBC, but an opinion by one of its critics.

Pagitt's book goes on my Christmas wish list. The people that I've met and read from that movement are different than what I see in typical denominational leadership, or even in the broader spectrum of evangelical, non-denominational churches. The focus is different, and it moves away from the typical business model approach of aiming at bigger numbers and more money, and into the realm of being certain that something is the Spirit's movement, and not just within the logical scope of human reason. It's based on consensus being a sign of the Spirit's leading.

I'd be interested to hear Chris put some context to his expression here.

Maybe Chris can put some context to his expression.
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Chris » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:11 pm

Sandy wrote:
Chris wrote:AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGH!




Maybe Chris can put some context to his expression.


This was usually Charlie Brown's cry of frustration when he had "had enough" of something.
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