Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

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Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Sandy » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:53 pm

My copy of The Exiled Generations: Legacies of the Southern Baptist Convention Holy War arrived about two weeks ago, but with the weather being as it is, and the school schedule changing daily, I didn't get into it immediately. Stephen's entry was the first one I read.

It's largely an account of his ouster from the Collinsville Baptist Church, with commentary on the denominational-political perspective that he insists got him ousted. It includes his version of the conflict with his pastor, the involvement of the church's deacons, and a mention of his involvement here at Bl.com which was being read by some of the church members, including, according to him, the pastor's wife. It sets up his position, on the "moderate" side of the conflict, with his normal name dropping and connections to leaders on that side of the SBC, along with touting his educational background against a characterization of the church and its leadership as "small town Alabama" in contrast.

What I get from the narrative is that Stephen believed that if he could only use his Furman education and his own experience as a background, he could "educate" the membership of the Collinsville church to the point where they would accept his premises, and add their support to the voices of those who were trying to prevent a fundamentalist takeover of the SBC. That same theme is echoed by several of the other excerpts I've read up to this point as well, that moderates were educated scholars, and as such, were entitled to convention leadership, while the uneducated fundies were not. Marshall Frady, Will Campbell, Will Willimon, Deitrich Boenhoffer, Carlyle Marney and Molly Marshall are among the name drops. There are hints that at least some of the difficulty involved conservative vs. liberal politics.

As I read through the book, realizing that it is written by the "second generation" children of individuals who once held power and influence, along with some of the better, high dollar denominational jobs, I get a clear sense of entitlement from them. Some are upset that when their parent lost their prominent, powerful position, they lost a chance at getting a job themselves without having to rely on their own credentials or compete with other people whose parents were not as influential, or as well placed. Stephen, at least, doesn't resort to the level of whining that some of the narrative authors do. Others show a level of contempt in criticizing the education and intelligence of those who moved the SBC in a more conservative direction, as well as for the members of the churches that accepted the need for change, and helped bring it about.
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:48 am

Sandy, I love how you come always to the same point of entitlement. Some of us knew nothing about that. My parents were not part of denominational politics, never attended an SBC or even a state convention. My mom went to a few associational meetings. Only one of my former pastors ever had a denominational job, and he left my home church when I was 7. I am not out to demean any of the Takeover crowd, just report what I saw and witnessed directly. I love Stephen Fox as my brother, but his take is not mine. Nobody is entitled to anything, except having the truth reported about them, not manufactured half-truths from carefully lifted quotes. At least in the old days, the SBC did not have a College of Cardinals (January Bible Study Cruise) to pick SBC presidents.
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby KeithE » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:10 am

Sandy wrote: That same theme is echoed by several of the other excerpts I've read up to this point as well, that moderates were educated scholars, and as such, were entitled to convention leadership, while the uneducated fundies were not.

As I read through the book, realizing that it is written by the "second generation" children of individuals who once held power and influence, along with some of the better, high dollar denominational jobs, I get a clear sense of entitlement from them. Some are upset that when their parent lost their prominent, powerful position, they lost a chance at getting a job themselves without having to rely on their own credentials or compete with other people whose parents were not as influential, or as well placed. Stephen, at least, doesn't resort to the level of whining that some of the narrative authors do. Others show a level of contempt in criticizing the education and intelligence of those who moved the SBC in a more conservative direction, as well as for the members of the churches that accepted the need for change, and helped bring it about.


Sandy, please provide examples of the other "excerpts" (besides Stephen’s) where you found “whining" or “entitlement". I have the book, read a few chapters (Williamson, Redford, Nelson, Pollard, and of course Fox). I have not found the “whining" or “entitlement” you are referring to (unless you characterize all disagreement as “whining”). Calling all disagreements “whining” is begging the question.
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Tim Bonney » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:59 pm

I guess I need to get a copy of the book. I can't take Sandy's word because his outlook on moderates is just so negative.

I think if a moderate pastor could walk on water Sandy would complain that he walked on his feet and not his hands. :wink:
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Sandy » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:28 pm

I would say that it is nearly impossible for a moderate, or one who sympathizes with them, to see whining in these narratives, or to see the sense of entitlement. But look at it this way. What's the need for yet another collection of narratives, this time from individuals who were mostly children and teenagers during the main part of the "controversy," more than thirty years after the fact, and long after moderates have declared they've discovered "a new way to be Baptist," and "we've moved on"? Clearly, that's not the case, at least for some, a fact that is confirmed by the perceived need for this particular volume. Perhaps a good secondary title for this book would be "The Search for Significance," because it seems that the work these folks are doing now doesn't provide them with that without rehashing the unfairness of three decades ago. And of course, every essay in the book is written from the perspective of its author, with no challenge to their recollection of the facts.

I know several of the authors by reputation, and two others from having been involved in the same state convention, and in one case, the same association. I know the axes they have to grind. In that sense, the whole book is a "whine."
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Haruo » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:11 am

Dave Roberts wrote:At least in the old days, the SBC did not have a College of Cardinals (January Bible Study Cruise) to pick SBC presidents.
I hadn't heard of the January Bible Study Cruise. Tell me about it. And you there planning for Francis's successor's selection, pay heed, it sounds like fun. And the papparazzi sittin' on the dock of the bay in Mallorca or wherever will cheer into their cellphones when they see the white smoke comingout of the cruise ship's smokestacks. "Habemus papam!"
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:08 am

Haruo wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:At least in the old days, the SBC did not have a College of Cardinals (January Bible Study Cruise) to pick SBC presidents.
I hadn't heard of the January Bible Study Cruise. Tell me about it. And you there planning for Francis's successor's selection, pay heed, it sounds like fun. And the papparazzi sittin' on the dock of the bay in Mallorca or wherever will cheer into their cellphones when they see the white smoke comingout of the cruise ship's smokestacks. "Habemus papam!"


In the early days of the Takeover, the leading conservative group went on the January Bible Study Cruise that I think was sponsored by Charles Stanley. It usually featured several of the leading conservatives like Adrian Rogers and Jerry Vines teaching the SBC January Bible Study book. On the cruise, when there was a need for nominating a new SBC president, there would be an announcement of the chosen next leader. When this got criticized heavily, the cruise changed to a one-day meeting at an Atlanta airport hotel. After the meeting, the announcement would be given to friendly denominational papers.
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:16 am

Sandy,

You thumb your nose about issues of "entitlement." I've not read the book so I cannot comment yet on if authors showed a sense of entitlement.

But as has been said above, I never had an important relative or mentor in the upper leadership of the SBC. So what did happen to me is that I looked at the CBF during its formation. Most of the CBF churches early on were large churches. I was a young pastor in my 20s and did not have the experience to apply for any of those CBF churches and be considered seriously. As of yet no placement system existed in the CBF. The Alliance was just forming and didn't have churches to apply to either.

So what did I do? Well as a moderate I could have tried to serve in Fundy churches and cover up my views. But that would have been dishonest. So I left the SBC for the ABC as there were few opportunities for young moderates in the CBF at the time.

That isn't being said to "whine" but simply to say that people in my generation of Southern Baptist moderates often went to the ABC, the PCUSA, and the UMC etc. because the change of the SBC structure from a moderate controlled denomination to the Takeover crowd left a whole bunch of us out in the cold.

Was I specifically entitled to an SBC church? No, of course not. But the opportunities to get an SBC church that existed before the takeover became very slim for people like me who grew up in a moderate SBC church and was educated at what used to be a moderate SBC seminary.

So while I was never entitled to an SBC pastorate, the fact that I grew up in the SBC, that my family had been in the SBC for generations, that I had been educated at SBC colleges and seminaries and that I was ordained by an SBC church had come to mean basically nothing for my future ministry.

That certainly left a bad taste in my mouth for what the Takeover leadership did to a whole generation of pastors who followed their call and then found that the rug had been pulled out from under them.
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby KeithE » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:32 pm

KeithE wrote:
Sandy wrote: That same theme is echoed by several of the other excerpts I've read up to this point as well, that moderates were educated scholars, and as such, were entitled to convention leadership, while the uneducated fundies were not.

As I read through the book, realizing that it is written by the "second generation" children of individuals who once held power and influence, along with some of the better, high dollar denominational jobs, I get a clear sense of entitlement from them. Some are upset that when their parent lost their prominent, powerful position, they lost a chance at getting a job themselves without having to rely on their own credentials or compete with other people whose parents were not as influential, or as well placed. Stephen, at least, doesn't resort to the level of whining that some of the narrative authors do. Others show a level of contempt in criticizing the education and intelligence of those who moved the SBC in a more conservative direction, as well as for the members of the churches that accepted the need for change, and helped bring it about.


Sandy, please provide examples of the other "excerpts" (besides Stephen’s) where you found “whining" or “entitlement". I have the book, read a few chapters (Williamson, Redford, Nelson, Pollard, and of course Fox). I have not found the “whining" or “entitlement” you are referring to (unless you characterize all disagreement as “whining”). Calling all disagreements “whining” is begging the question.


I’m waiting and will check it out.
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Sandy » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:51 pm

KeithE wrote:
KeithE wrote:
Sandy wrote: That same theme is echoed by several of the other excerpts I've read up to this point as well, that moderates were educated scholars, and as such, were entitled to convention leadership, while the uneducated fundies were not.

As I read through the book, realizing that it is written by the "second generation" children of individuals who once held power and influence, along with some of the better, high dollar denominational jobs, I get a clear sense of entitlement from them. Some are upset that when their parent lost their prominent, powerful position, they lost a chance at getting a job themselves without having to rely on their own credentials or compete with other people whose parents were not as influential, or as well placed. Stephen, at least, doesn't resort to the level of whining that some of the narrative authors do. Others show a level of contempt in criticizing the education and intelligence of those who moved the SBC in a more conservative direction, as well as for the members of the churches that accepted the need for change, and helped bring it about.


Sandy, please provide examples of the other "excerpts" (besides Stephen’s) where you found “whining" or “entitlement". I have the book, read a few chapters (Williamson, Redford, Nelson, Pollard, and of course Fox). I have not found the “whining" or “entitlement” you are referring to (unless you characterize all disagreement as “whining”). Calling all disagreements “whining” is begging the question.


I’m waiting and will check it out.


Everything I've read so far has been a whine. As I said, the very thought that there is a need for the "second generation" thirty plus years after the fact, to even put this into writing is, in and of itself, whining. Honestly, and not with any malice intended, but really, I have to ask the question, "Who cares?" These are all stories of unchallenged hearsay. CBF keeps resisting being tagged with the identity of "We're not the SBC" and something like this doesn't contribute anything to changing their image, and in fact, is counterproductive to it. In the SBC, they've long since moved on, and couldn't care less. I suspect that a lot of people who invest in purchasing a copy are either its own authors, or people who know them either personally or by reputation. I wouldn't even say that money is the main motivation, because I doubt this volume sells enough to make any. I read Stephen's entry, Redford, Shotwell, Kaylor and Mulkey. I'm not even wasting my time on any of the others.
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby KeithE » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:56 pm

Sandy wrote:
KeithE wrote:
KeithE wrote:
Sandy, please provide examples of the other "excerpts" (besides Stephen’s) where you found “whining" or “entitlement". I have the book, read a few chapters (Williamson, Redford, Nelson, Pollard, and of course Fox). I have not found the “whining" or “entitlement” you are referring to (unless you characterize all disagreement as “whining”). Calling all disagreements “whining” is begging the question.


I’m waiting and will check it out.


Everything I've read so far has been a whine. As I said, the very thought that there is a need for the "second generation" thirty plus years after the fact, to even put this into writing is, in and of itself, whining. Honestly, and not with any malice intended, but really, I have to ask the question, "Who cares?" These are all stories of unchallenged hearsay. CBF keeps resisting being tagged with the identity of "We're not the SBC" and something like this doesn't contribute anything to changing their image, and in fact, is counterproductive to it. In the SBC, they've long since moved on, and couldn't care less. I suspect that a lot of people who invest in purchasing a copy are either its own authors, or people who know them either personally or by reputation. I wouldn't even say that money is the main motivation, because I doubt this volume sells enough to make any. I read Stephen's entry, Redford, Shotwell, Kaylor and Mulkey. I'm not even wasting my time on any of the others.

Sandy,

My aren’t you the epitome of overstatement (in red above).

I’ll admit I would not have bought the book except for Fox. But nonetheless it is interesting reading about people’s lives.

BTW, Stephen, still waiting on the autograph get-together. I could drive over your way.

Sandy, let’s look at Redford since we both have read her story.

First, here is the definition of “whine" : "to complain in an annoying way”.
So, I guess whining is in the eye of the beholder. It might “all" be annoying to you (and that is your problem).

The closest things I could find in Redford (writing as a 24 year planning to get a MDIV and work with teenagers) that might possibly be thought of as whining to a neutral observer (not pre-disposed to be annoyed by any “moderate”) are:

(1) While in junior high in Clinton, MS - “My friends did not understand why, if I was a Baptist, I went to church out in Jackson. There where at least five Baptist churches in Clinton”

(2) While in senior high - “I had a core group of friends, almost all of whom were Southern Baptists, and all of whose religious and political beliefs I knew I stood far leftward of.”
These were both interactions with her friends/core group as a teenager and she was not saying it bothered her much.

Sandy, tell me what else you classified as “whining” or “entitlement" in Redford. She seems like a well-rounded, fairly articulate 24 year old with plans to serve God and certainly not claiming any entitlement from her parents. She is moving on with hardly a whimper.
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Sandy » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:25 pm

Sorry, Keith, but a book written by children of some individuals who found themselves on the outside of the SBC more than thirty years ago is a whine. I've set my copy down, and I'm not picking it up again.
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby William Thornton » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:39 am

Sandy wrote:Sorry, Keith, but a book written by children of some individuals who found themselves on the outside of the SBC more than thirty years ago is a whine. I've set my copy down, and I'm not picking it up again.


Sandy, I'll pay you to ship it to me. I'd like to reasd it and don't want to put $30+ into it. Will return afterward...
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Sandy » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:35 am

William Thornton wrote:
Sandy wrote:Sorry, Keith, but a book written by children of some individuals who found themselves on the outside of the SBC more than thirty years ago is a whine. I've set my copy down, and I'm not picking it up again.


Sandy, I'll pay you to ship it to me. I'd like to reasd it and don't want to put $30+ into it. Will return afterward...


Sure. Just PM your address and I'll send it to you this week.
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Four Furman grads in the book

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:18 pm

One, Ken Satterfield talks about his father's experience. There is no way you could call Sattefrield, or myself for that matter, to the manor born in Baptist life. I saw several nice things about the promise of the church and name two outstanding women, one a hs classmate of my Mother that showed early promise of the church.

I hope Dave Roberts gets a copy of the book soon, Very interested in reading his take on my effort and the others; and Thornton for that matter as well.

Dave, send me an email. Keith get my emaiul to Dave. I will try to get Dave a copy a shared copy asap, though I encourage all of you to have your local library, public library and many of you your church library bone up for a copy. Carson Newman's Dave McCneely piece is beautifully written, and The essay "She Ironed our Underwear". Also, Bailey Edwards Nelson, another Furman grand and o=in the origins of the New Baptist Covenant movement, has a great piece about her time in Mt Airy N.C. though I'm sure next to mine it was one of Sandy's least faves.

While I take issue of course, with his takeaway, I appreciate him taking a look at the book.

Some of you will want to visit the facebook discussion of this book http://www.facebook.com/sbcexiles. I'm going to link this discussion there.

Praise report, there is a copy in the Ft Payne Alabama library now, but not sure if Collinsville Lyberry has a copy yet.

There are some rubes in the Collinsville Congregation for sure, but I did not paint them as Sandy suggests. There are Auburn, Dyuke, UVA, Yale, Baylor, Samfor Penn State, Judson and many others in the church, some of them in the honors program. So the church's extended family was very capable of understanding what was at stake. I think I did a fairly decent job in eight pages of explaining their "Pass" on the matter and how it happened.

P.S.; If Sandy liked my testimony, he's gonna love the one from Oklahoma's Lavonn Brown/s son; worth the book right there for David Flick!
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Sandy will like this from Feb 2006

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:51 pm

I think I have Fortner's reply somewhere; If I can find it will post it as well. It got posted in the Collinsville Post Office with some detractors writing in comments at my expense,

http://www.postpaper.com/foxoped.htm
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No Sense of Entitlement in this essay

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:26 pm

Furman 81 grad Ken Satterfield talks about his deacon father's experience in his essay at Exiled Gens; Quoting from the facebook wall:



Author Ken Satterfield left for seminary in 1981. Shortly thereafter, his family church--of which his father, George, was a deacon and 40-year members--came under the control of the fundamentalists. Ken writes of his father's "trial," and of the unbelievable confrontation with a fundamentalist professor from a nearby bible college while undergoing a biopsy for cancer. Eventually, his father and mother helped birth a new church.

"George Satterfield found a new purpose in birthing a church. He once again served as a deacon, a teacher, and a respected church leader. I admired how he enjoyed pouring over materials for each week's lesson and asked really difficult and deep questions to me, the seminary graduate. He may have had scars from his experiences ... but he found happiness in once again worshipping alongside old friends, finding new ones, and serving God.

"I recently came across a set of audiotapes from 'the trial.' I don't believe I will be listening to them. What purpose would it serve? But I can be inspired by them, knowing that they represent the price of trying to do the right thing."
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:17 pm

Sandy wrote:Sorry, Keith, but a book written by children of some individuals who found themselves on the outside of the SBC more than thirty years ago is a whine. I've set my copy down, and I'm not picking it up again.


Translation from SBC speak to English: "If enough years go by you can bury and pretty much forget/hide the unChristian tactics of the SBC Takeover leadership, canonize them, put paintings of them in seminary chapels, and then vilify anyone who has the gaul to remind you what actually happened" Yep, break out the whine. :D
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Sandy » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:36 pm

This book is just a collection of memoirs from the perspective of the writer, mostly second-hand, and years ago. For moderate Baptists, who claim high respect for scholarship, and value affirmation, this kind of gossipy reminiscing is out of character. Oh, what a field day they'd have if conservatives put forth something like this, and then followed it up with a second volume written by the next generation.

I don't think all of the moderate recollections of "the controversy" are as accurate and truthful as they claim. There were some pretty unchristian tactics and personal kingdom building and turf protecting tactics committed by the moderate, pre-1979 SBC leadership that were not examples of ideal purity. If these folks are finding their new Baptist identity and ventures to be less than satisfying, perhaps they could take up scuba diving or underwater basketweaving. :D
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:14 pm

Sandy wrote:

I don't think all of the moderate recollections of "the controversy" are as accurate and truthful as they claim. There were some pretty unchristian tactics and personal kingdom building and turf protecting tactics committed by the moderate, pre-1979 SBC leadership that were not examples of ideal purity. If these folks are finding their new Baptist identity and ventures to be less than satisfying, perhaps they could take up scuba diving or underwater basketweaving. :D


You always forget you are talking in a room of people who were there.

Maybe David Flick can remind you of the very personal "recollections" of how moderates were treated by the Takeover crowd.

I've always been sorry that your bad experience with the CBF caused you to drink the Takeover cool-aide.
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:40 pm

Sandy wrote:This book is just a collection of memoirs from the perspective of the writer, mostly second-hand, and years ago. For moderate Baptists, who claim high respect for scholarship, and value affirmation, this kind of gossipy reminiscing is out of character. Oh, what a field day they'd have if conservatives put forth something like this, and then followed it up with a second volume written by the next generation.


Sandy, your memory is short. Don't forget Judge Pressler's "A Hill on Which to Die." There have been few more gossipy pieces filled with the gloat of winning. Sutton's history was not a lot better.
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:08 am

Sandy wrote:This book is just a collection of memoirs from the perspective of the writer, mostly second-hand, and years ago. For moderate Baptists, who claim high respect for scholarship, and value affirmation, this kind of gossipy reminiscing is out of character. Oh, what a field day they'd have if conservatives put forth something like this, and then followed it up with a second volume written by the next generation.

I don't think all of the moderate recollections of "the controversy" are as accurate and truthful as they claim. There were some pretty unchristian tactics and personal kingdom building and turf protecting tactics committed by the moderate, pre-1979 SBC leadership that were not examples of ideal purity. If these folks are finding their new Baptist identity and ventures to be less than satisfying, perhaps they could take up scuba diving or underwater basketweaving. :D


Ed; Sandy, you have repeated your opinion of Kell's latest on/from the "exiled", some of us are still waiting for you to cite something from the book to support that opinion. Honestly, I have seen nothing from you that would persuade me that you have even seen the book.

Useing your same logic when you claim that "There were some pretty unchristian tactics and personal kingdom building and turf protecting tactics committed by the moderate, pre-1979 SBC leadership that were not examples of ideal purity ", you are talking about what you perceive from 36 years ago. So why should others not write about their perceptions?
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby KeithE » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:14 am

[quote="Ed Pettibone”]
Ed; Sandy, you have repeated your opinion of Kell's latest on/from the "exiled", some of us are still waiting for you to cite something from the book to support that opinion. Honestly, I have seen nothing from you that would persuade me that you have even seen the book.
[/quote]

I was going to say the same thing.
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:18 am

Well I just ordered a copy of the book from Amazon. Anything that Sandy dislikes that much related to moderate Southern Baptists is worthy of a financial contribution. :lol:
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Re: Fox's Narrative in The Exiled Generation

Postby Sandy » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:10 pm

Ed Pettibone wrote:
Sandy wrote:This book is just a collection of memoirs from the perspective of the writer, mostly second-hand, and years ago. For moderate Baptists, who claim high respect for scholarship, and value affirmation, this kind of gossipy reminiscing is out of character. Oh, what a field day they'd have if conservatives put forth something like this, and then followed it up with a second volume written by the next generation.

I don't think all of the moderate recollections of "the controversy" are as accurate and truthful as they claim. There were some pretty unchristian tactics and personal kingdom building and turf protecting tactics committed by the moderate, pre-1979 SBC leadership that were not examples of ideal purity. If these folks are finding their new Baptist identity and ventures to be less than satisfying, perhaps they could take up scuba diving or underwater basketweaving. :D


Ed; Sandy, you have repeated your opinion of Kell's latest on/from the "exiled", some of us are still waiting for you to cite something from the book to support that opinion. Honestly, I have seen nothing from you that would persuade me that you have even seen the book.

Useing your same logic when you claim that "There were some pretty unchristian tactics and personal kingdom building and turf protecting tactics committed by the moderate, pre-1979 SBC leadership that were not examples of ideal purity ", you are talking about what you perceive from 36 years ago. So why should others not write about their perceptions?


Having a conversation about it is one thing, Ed. Putting it in book form sends quite another message. These are the children of the "exiles" so much of the content isn't even first hand.

I bought the book mainly to read Stephen's essay. And as I said, he uses his expulsion from the Collinsville Baptist Church as a backdrop for some of the other themes he hangs his hat on, though I'll say that he did stay fairly focused on that theme, and didn't drift too far down his normal "The John Birchers are responsible for all the evil in the world including the SBC" trail. He basically took the path that he was trying to educate and enlighten the small town Alabama hicks in the Collinsville Baptist Church about what really happened in the SBC, they didn't appreciate it, so he eventually got the boot.

I read a few of the others that I recognized by name. I'll be happy to loan you my copy rather than have you pay the full price for it, but right now, it is making its way through the postal system to William's mailbox in Georgia.
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