Wayne Flynt - Ethics over Beliefs

[KeithE]

Stephen posted this on the Baptist History and Heritage Forum.

Since it is mostly about the future, I’ll mention it here.



Please listen

Some of his points:

Matthew 25 says the Judge will value helping the poor, the sick, the marginalized and not even ask about beliefs

Southern Evangelicalism majors on beliefs (and a few personal ethical rules) and not on helping people.

The SBC (and others) are losing 75-90% of its 18-35 year olds because of judgmentalism and hypocrisy.

He expects Africa, South American and Asia to become the major truly Christian continents and they will try to suppress America’s hedonism, narcissism and materialism.

[Sandy]

http://thefederalist.com/2014/08/21/how ... easy-step/

There's lots of speculation here, some I would agree with in principle, but I don't think all of his presuppositions are accurate. I'd disagree with the contention about Southern Evangelicalism being more focused on belief and not on "helping people." I'd be willing to bet that if you crunched the numbers of both volunteers, and dollars spent on those kinds of ministries, Southern Baptists alone would be doing as much of that kind of ministry as virtually all other Protestants combined. I've worked in one of the SBC's denominationally sponsored ministries that mobilizes volunteers, mostly high school and college students, for rehabbing and weatherizing homes for low income families for about 20 years now, with thousands of volunteers at over 100 sites every summer, the number of homes served over a 22 year period is now in the tens of thousands across the country. The disaster relief ministry of state conventions, coordinated through NAMB, is legendary. I don't know if you could even measure the extent of food distribution, hot meals and food pantry distribution, of the local churches, along with a very extensive world hunger relief program. I think the impression is created because the churches do a lot of local ministry on their own that isn't highly visible across the board. In the communities where I've lived in the South, Southern Baptists, and other "Evangelicals" represented the lion's share of that kind of ministry.

There's been a small numerical decline in the SBC since it's peak membership, about 3-5% total, though I wonder how much of that is due to an increase in the number of churches who don't send in their ACP. There's no question that Sunday School enrollment, which is probably the best measure of age group demographics, among 18-35 year olds is down from where it was two decades ago, though only by about 16%.

On the other hand, none of that is anywhere close to the losses experienced by the four denominations highlighted in the article, those figures occurring since those groups became open to ordaining gay and lesbian clergy. So it would seem that beliefs may have some effect on church membership.

[KeithE]

[ET]

[Dave Roberts]

As I listened to Flynt (whose work I respect), I think he is on point. I did not hear an attack on the SBC at all. Southern Evangelicalism is so much broader taking in many parts of Methodism and parts of the Presbyterian fold as well as Pentecostals, Bible churches, and even many of the African American groups. I believe he is much more a student of Southern culture that is heir to the belief that a man could be right with God while owning, beating, and humiliating his slaves. That separation of head and heart has trickled down to us. I have been a part of some of the programs Sandy spoke about, and the problem was not that they exist. Thank God they do. The problem is that they are such a small minority of believers. Virginia Baptist, for example, maintain a great disaster relief capability. The reality, however, is that perhaps 500 people among all the Baptists in the state are involved. Also, frequently groups go off to another city or state and do great work there but would never dream of going across town to work on the homes of people in their own communities. I grew up in a church that used to do missions in the neighborhood. That's where I see the greatest problem.

[Sandy]

[KeithE]

[linda]

Playing a bit of devil's advocate here:

The belief that unless folks are signed up doing relief work of some kind THROUGH THE CHURCH means they just "sit and soak" is debatable at best, and downright demeaning at worst.

First and foremost, those sit and soakers may be doing all the right things in their families, in their neighborhoods, in their schools, or on their jobs. Not living in an ivory tower from whence to cast judgments, they may have blamed little spare time or spare cash for those good projects.

And suppose they do have the time and the cash? I can speak only of my town, but they seem, those evil evangelicals, to be busy doing an awful lot of that good work. It just isn't reportable by their pastors because it gets done one on one.

So if I skip the short term mission trip and instead give a single parent free day care, or buy their kids' school supplies and clothes, you won't know it. I don't volunteer at the food kitchen because I am too busy lowering my carbon footprint by gardening, food preserving, slow cooking, and sharing and teaching the same to my neighbors.

By the time we get our own home winterized, the firewood cut and stacked, and finish toting the water we have gathered, no, there isn't much time or energy to go do so for someone else. Wish there were, but in our sixties we just don't move as fast. And when we were younger with children to raise there wasn't that much spare time either.

Some work at the free health clinic, but some just drive their neighbors to the doctor. Some gather Christmas toys for those shoe boxes, but others make sure there are jobs for local mom's and dad's so they can purchase what their kids need.

I guess what I'm saying is this: the church could use a whole lot less survivor's guilt and back stabbing, and a whole lot more spine when attacked for holding to "right beliefs."

And I don't buy for a minute the idea when I reach the Pearly Gates God will barter "ok, you fed the homeless and imprisoned so I'll let that sin I called sin and told you not to do slide."

It isn't either/or. Not good works or right beliefs. It is both. And sometimes obeying one clear command of God DOES mean not having as much time for another. But then, if my gang banging poverty neighbors obeyed His teachings, lived quietly and earned their own living, they wouldn't need my visits and my helps.

And together we could really make a difference for someone who suffers through no fault of their own.

[Tim Bonney]

[Dave Roberts]

[Sandy]

I would agree that there are some branches and groups among the conservative evangelical community that get caught up in "getting it right", as a security blanket or as a means of comparison with other Christians, or a measure of personal righteousness. I wouldn't even say that's a majority of evangelicals. The SBC is frequently misjudged here in that way, but from a doctrinal perspective, with the exception of a few essentials, there are some more liberal, hierarchical denominations that have a more codified doctrinal position than that of Southern Baptists, at least, at the denominational level. And what I hear in this discussion are overtones that suggest the level of righteousness is somehow higher among those who value "doing something" over beliefs.

I really don't think the point can be made that somehow "Southern Evangelicals" or conservative evangelicals, or whatever category that constitutes, are light on the service aspect of their faith. There are some aspects of belief which, if they are considered unimportant, or negotiable, and are inconsistent with what God has revealed, will completely change the nature of Christian faith, and turn it into something that has no redemptive value, and that would include the idea that human works are a means to spiritual redemption. I've lived a lot of places in the South where the ecumenical, community ministries like food pantries and emergency assistance would either not exist at all, or would be severely diminished if it were not for the Southern Baptists who support it with their time and money.

I think God is as interested in what we believe as he is in what we do, because I believe the Bible reflects a revelation of himself that links the two together. I believe implicitly that faith without works is dead, and as James says, "I will show you my faith by my works," but if the faith is some nebulous and undefined philosophical perspective, the works will reflect that same perspective.

[Stephen Fox]

Hoover Alabama, that congresional district is a case study for Flynt as it entangles the SBC. That is where the new SBC IMB Ex Director is from and where Gary Palmer has been elected US Congressman. His new chief of staff, William Smith, a Black man, reportedly is more of an ideologue than Ben Carson and Allan Keys. That's Flynt's homestate, with a Baptist deacon governor. See how southern evangelicalism plays in that petri dish in light of Flynt and the Oct 9 Tom Powers NYbooks.com piece on Texas Baptists.