Clear Cut Violation of Religious Liberty

[Ed Pettibone]

[James]

At Hampton Baptist, we run a soup kitchen one day a week, other churches run a kitchen on other week days. Our chief cooks went to a health dept. course on the running of a soup kitchen. We obey the guidelines and our kitchen is subject to inspection. We serve fresh nutritious food. The sandwiches Dave mentioned were prepared in our kitchen.

As an aside mentioned in a prior post on this thread. No one in government really supports our troops. They support wars but not troops, and that is more than I should say right now. I worked for the army for 32 years and was told once that I could be arrested and charged with treason, if I did not quit talking about the government's shortcomings in supporting our troops, but the VA scandal is a public example of what I was talking about. And that scandal goes back at least to the time of President Reagan.

Linda's and Mrs H's points are both valid and both speak to our government's lack of respect for and support of our returning veterans. Most of my concerns relate to soldiers on the battlefield.

I forget which Psalm says it, but one at least says straight out that the King must feed the poor. This, at least, is central to this thread.

[KeithE]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: A some what more informative story of what is going on in Ft Lauderdale may be found at http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/browa ... story.html

And James, I need to say that as a veteran who utilizes the VA Hospital in Albany, NY and their satellite service in Schenectady as well as having a Private GP and Rheumatologist. I have to say I believe "the VA scandal" is over blown. There may be places with real problems but ALbany isnot one of them Under my insurance plan I had to have a private GP to continue being seen by the Rheumatologist that I had at the VA when he elected to not renew his contract with the VA., due to other professional opportunities in private practice and allowing time for teaching and research at the Albany Med Center. I have been getting the bulk of my medical attention at the VA since the fall of 2002 shortly after we came to Upstate NY, and I had a serious flare up of my arthritis before I had sought out a physician. In a follow up physical they discovered a tumor in the auditory canal of my right ear. The out of pocket cost was minimal . Later I had arthroscopic surgery on the left knee. I have also had two colonoscopes over these years, again at almost no cost. This past Thursday I had My first ever complete eye exam by an optometrist. I was his last appointment of the day and he was running late due to complications with another patient. While his receptionist showed a bit of impatience, the Dr. remained calm cool and collected and apologized because they could not get my new glasses that day. He noted that I have an appointment in Rheumatology on Dec. 1 and that If I go in to his department before that appointment to pick out the frames they will have my glasses ready before I leave the building in fact he said that I can go in any day between now and then and they will get them ready. So I will do that on The 21st when Trudy has a Appointment at the Albany med center just two blocks away He said my eyes are quite healthy for a person almost 81. I do have the start of cataracts in both eyes but no What Is Macular Degeneration or Glaucoma. For now they will correct my vision with glasses and twice a year exams for the cataract progress. I also get my medications through the VA at a significant reduction, one price $9.00 covers each, and occasionally the pharmacist will ask if I just want to get something like vitamins over the counter at a local drugstore because it is cheaper that way.

And I will acknowledge that Major VA hospitals are some times at great distance from vets needing the services. When we where in the Adirondacks I used to drive 160 miles round trip but there was a van that would have provided transportation if I wanted to spend the whole day waiting, when most of my appointments take less than 20 Min.

[James]

Ed, I'm glad you get good care. I know some who do not, including a second cousin and the son of our best friends. It took years to get him the right kind of care through the VA system, but his problems stemmed from his bi-polar condition which was easier to ignore than a real physical problem.

[Ed Pettibone]

[William Thornton]

Difficult to have this conversation because you keep introducing and attributing emotions to others. I don't recall anyone saying they were repulsed by feeding the homeless.

Dictionary and legal definitions of "compelling" don't help much here because the SCOTUS hasn't defined it.

The state doesn't have to prove guilt to arrest someone. The arrestee is presumed innocent.

Your best argument here is that while gummit has constitutional power to restrict this activity, we should all be wary of excessive use of the same. You seem to prefer to assert some phantom constitutional absolute instead. Not a winning argument.

[KeithE]

[Tim Bonney]

[KeithE]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

Keith,

I believe the church is included in the judgment of the nations. But what I often see conservative Christians do is try to make all charity the responsibility of the local church or religious bodies and give the government a pass. Jesus doesn't do that.

[linda]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if all this faith generated zeal to help were channeled into both private and government programs that really help long term, instead of feel good quick fixes?

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

[linda]

I can't speak to or deny your experiences, but mine have been very different.

It feels good and is so easy to just say "Well at least they didn't go hungry today", or "long term solutions are fine but what about now" or even accuse those who disagree with a particular METHOD of helping the poor of just wanting to hide them so as to not be bothered by them.

But the simple truth is that thinking allows us to back burner the long term, better, more helpful solutions. It is easy to convince myself I can't help all the homeless and can't change the system so why not feed a few living under a bridge or in a park. But how much more beneficial to THEM to see to it there are safe, clean, well administered feeding programs, rehabs, mental health facilities, etc available and then insist the help be done right.

It sort of smacks of the old abortion debate--since women die in poorly done back alley abortions, let's legalize it. Of course, let's NOT require they be done as safely as a colonoscopy, as that makes them too expensive and harder to get. How much better to first make legal abortion have to be as safe as any other surgical procedure, and also work to bring the desire for abortion on demand to an end by addressing the root causes.

In our town, not only does it require inspection and permits to conduct this kind of feeding program, but if our church or local business or family group wants to do a large picnic in the park, the same permit is required.

The chef's religious freedom is not infringed upon by making him follow the same standards as the rest of society. He can still feed the poor, just within the local laws. What if his religious belief demanded he go around shooting liberal and moderate pastors? Still think his religious "rights" trump law

Seriously, we do need more advocates for the poor willing to step up. But the focus needs to be long term solutions, not short term fixes. We can't be duped into thinking food from and in a soup kitchen is somehow less holy than food in a park.

[KeithE]

Long term solutions are more jobs and a hike in the min wage and watch the economy grow from the stimulus that would result.

Of course as I have seen even today, many of the poor are mentally challenged and I'm not sure about the long term solutions to that.

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

[KeithE]

[Sandy]

What would constitute a "compelling interest" by government to pass an ordinance against feeding the homeless in the open, in a city park?

[KeithE]

[Ed Pettibone]

[KeithE]

[Ed Pettibone]

I guess it is things like Ed said:

Ed: And Oh Yea, every time we visit NYC we stop by Metro Baptist Just a block from the port authority bus station and early any morning there are folk sleeping on the steps of the church. You can not transverse Manhattan with out seeing the poor.

KeithE: I wonder if the Metro Baptist pew Bible says:
1 John 3:17: If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?

Ed: Keith, would you translate your comments above for me. Do you have a problem with Metro letting people sleep on their steps? If so You must not know any thing about Metro. By the way they don't have pews. And if you google them be sure to use Metro, not Metropolitan which is another entity that I find quite interesting.[/quote]

KeithE: No I have no problem with Metro Church (or any other) letting people sleeping on their steps.
do “knot” know anything about that church. I just know Jesus asks that we have pity and show love towards the poor.

Ed: A CBFer who doesn't know any thing about one of our Crown Jewels. BL.C needs a shaking head Icon, will have to with. & + And Keith I imagine that you know that Jesus also said of the poor "you will have them with you always".