Gushee's pro-gay stance no surprise

[William Thornton]

[KeithE]

As always William awaiting any leftward drift so that he can complain about it and associate it with any unliked group.

[William Thornton]

[KeithE]

[William Thornton]

You're good finding, reading, and analyzing data. You are inept at assessing the state-of-mind and/or emotions of others. Stick with the data, bro.

[Jerry_B]

I'll take the advice given and wait for Gushee. I do look forward to his comments because he is a good scholar and because he may have something beneficial to say to the church as it wrestles with this issue.

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: William, you and Roach are two of a kind. Of course Roy had a good teacher in Russ Moore when it comes to one sided reporting. BTW, I am not defending Gushgee's apparent position on homosexuality. However when you say "Gushee, of course, was a Southern Seminary prof way back in the 1990s and, absent the Conservative Resurgence, would likely be a distinguished SBC academic today. Another reason the CR was necessary, though messy."

When you say that "Gushee was a Southern Seminary prof way back in the 1990s and, absent the Conservative Resurgence, would likely be a distinguished SBC academic today. Another reason the CR was necessary, though messy" I have to smile a bit. After all it was January of 90 that I went back to SBTS as a student, so for me less than a moth shy of 82, and having three more years on that campus while my wife did her M.Div.. the1990's don't seem so far back . But then David G. was not there 90, nor even when the 96-98 SBTS Catalog was published. I reference that catalog because it is the latest I have. Keep in mind that it was R. Albert Mohler, a reported leader of the "Resurgence" who had been a Doctoral Student and an administrative assistant to then President Roy L Honneycutt, when Gusshee got his M.Div., at Southern in 88, that then hired Gusshee , I believe it was in 97. I think You would agree that the "resurgence" was for all practical matter over by that time

David G. went from, SBTS to teach at Union University in Tn.,where SBC Evangelical, David Dockery was President. That is the same David Dockery who had been a professor of Theology at SBTS when Gushsse was a student there. And least any be confused, Union University is not related to the widely acknowledged liberal, Union Seminary, where D.G. did his M.Phil, and Ph.D

[Tim Bonney]

[William Thornton]

Ed, the BP article says he taught at SBTS from 1993-1996.

[Ed Pettibone]

[William Thornton]

Stephen, you can email or PM me your suggestions for my engagement. Please make comments relevant to the topic of Gushee/LGBT. Thanks.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Steve I think William may have purposely adopted that term "Messy" from Leonard's description of polity and history among Baptists in general.

[Stephen Fox]

Bill Leonard has a good help for Thornton here as William goes deeper in the Word


http://baptistnews.com/opinion/item/294 ... ited-again

[Stephen Fox]

As far as I can tell, William you are the monitor of SBC Trends only. I am satisfied my thoughts are relevant to the whole board, and it is only you who take issue and have adopted the habit of cavalierly, indiscriminately erasing and deleting my contributions and I am sick and tired of it.

That said, Bill Leonard has a word for you as I link above.

You have so many emails I have no idea which one is currently functional. Why Don't you email me cause I'm pretty certain you have it. I'l send you my story on Gaffney football if you pledge not to share with Marc Richt who has a scout in Dekalb County Alabama almost every Friday night!

[Dave Roberts]

I have read David Gushee's posts with interest, because I have sensed him both trying to grapple with scripture, Christian tradition, and the seismic shifts in culture that are in process. I don't find that I am where he is in everything, but I do think it's necessary to grapple with these issues. For me the issues have been personalized in two ways. The first came when I received a call asking if I would do a funeral service for a church member who was openly gay. The request came with an acknowledgement that his partner of some thirty years would be seated as one of the family and would be acknowledged in his obituary and in the funeral home folder. The second has been knowing the son of a very dear older minister, that son being openly gay, and I watched a man of God wrestling with how he would handle his son's "marriage." A third has come in serving as interim in an urban congregation that has some openly gay members who sit in church as couples with their same-sex partners. His careful reflection has helped me to do some of my own processing of this issue. I would be interested in the responses of others who may be serving amid these situations.

[William Thornton]

[Sandy]

Conservative Evangelicals, including a lot of Southern Baptists, are rethinking their approach to ministry when it comes to issues involving persons of homosexual orientation, but that shouldn't be interpreted as a "shift" away from what they see as a solidly Biblical stance that considers homosexual behavior sinful. You might have a few on the left who will follow a path like Gushee, but that's not an indication of a trend toward thinking it's not evidence of sin that needs forgiveness and people who need redemption.

If you look at trends in American Christianity now, what you see are denominations and groups that have become "welcoming and affirming" losing churches and membership at an accelerating rate. The Episcopal Church is literally fracturing, losses approaching 40% of their membership and affiliated churches since 2000. Other gay-friendly denominations are seeing similar losses. Part of that is theological, part of it is due to people's discomfort.

No doubt, Baptists need a much more effective, much more Christian approach to ministry in this regard, but I don't think Gushee's approach or view is going to be the direction most will go. And I think William got this one pretty much on target.

[William Thornton]

[KeithE]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Keith when you say "I look to the day when the Christ-following church would react to LBGTs as Jesus reacted to lepers and/or those caught in adultery. I would agree if you mean care for and heal, as with the leper, and his saying "l and say go and sin no more" as with the woman taken in adultery.

And Keith I am persuaded that tough love is often the more caring. Tough love need not be abusive.

As for finding a homosexual gene, for me it is a given that all are born with a propensity to sin as Christians we are to called to make such evident to all and call them to repentance. You an Gushee are nice guys but I believe on this matter you offer counterfeit tickets to the kingdom. Maybe he prints them and you and others hand them out. It happens every year at World series time, The Supper Bowl and NCAA Basketball time. If in sports why not religion? Ah! but you get no profit. Yet others do find peddling a false gospel quite profitable.

[Sandy]

[KeithE]

Good words Sandy.

I only suggested leprosy as an equivalent to homosexuality if some day a genetic link is established. But I do now see that a leper has no choice to avoid physical leprosy, while the homosexual could limit behavior. But asking behavior to be forever checked, when facing an orientation that could be as powerful as my heterosexual urges, is asking a lot.

If you do have some of those behavioral science reports it would be good to provide links. I find even the best of us, misunderstand or misinterpret research results.

[KeithE]

[Dave Roberts]

I will confess not having read all the literature in the genetic research being done. I have read a good bit of it, and IMHO, the jury is still out as to whether there is or is not a biological predisposition in some people toward homosexuality. I am also aware that upbringing can play a role, though sometimes one child in the midst of a household will express a gay desire while others show none. The judgment of an individual is way above my pay grade. We need a lot more research and many more face-to-face dialogues before all of this is settled.