Question About Calvinism and False Converts

[Jason Wolfe]

Hello, I have, as the title says, a question for Calvinists about false converts and, specifically, how they relate to the fifth point of Calvinism: Perseverance of the Saints. Okay, here it is, Reformed theology says that you must "persevere to the end to be saved", right? So, if you're saved, you won't "fall away from the faith" by becoming an atheist/agnostic or joining a different religion, etc., right? You also cannot lose your salvation, because God has already chosen you to be saved before he even created the world, right? So what do you do with people who "seemingly" (in the Reformed mindset) have faith, but then stop believing? These people are classified as "false converts", correct? And don't you guys always go to 1 John 2:19 to explain this phenomenon? "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." So you take this verse to mean that everyone who says they have faith, and seems to believe and be saved, who then falls away are people who God decreed would do that in order for it to be manifested that they were never really saved in the first place (unless it's someone who falls away, but then comes back later, like one of John Piper's sons? Does he have more than one son? I don't know), true? Assuming that I understand your position and have characterized it correctly, this is my question: Do you believe that it's impossible for someone who's a false convert to die before they fall away, and thereby have their false conversion manifested? Do you think that everyone who has died having persevered in the faith is definitely saved, or that some (or maybe many) of them could have actually been false converts who just died before their false conversion was made manifest? Has God decreed that every false convert will be made manifest before they die, or not? I hope my question makes sense, and I appreciate whatever response you have. Thank you.

[Dave Roberts]

Such mental gymnastics make me thankful not to be a Calvinist.

[Haruo]

Jason, I think you will find that very few if any here will self-identify as Calvinists. I generally call myself a universalist, and I can see how universalism can be described as a "Calvinist heresy"; but I am certainly not one of those you are writing to.

[David Flick]

[KeithE]

Sure am glad I’m not the final judge. Nor should I be concerned about judging the faith or conduct of people though out their lives. Interesting question, Jason, but not one I need to answer.

My sincere hope is that all will be saved to some other heavenly existence after this conscious life.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Dave Roberts]

[Sandy]

This isn't an issue that I've particularly resolved in my own mind. This is what I know. If you have a clear understanding of exactly what "grace" is, then you know that it is impossible to fall away from it, if you've received it, no matter what you do. I cannot look upon someone's soul, or its spiritual condition, and therefore cannot judge it by the behavior it exhibits. The reference to "falling from grace" is rejection of Jesus during conviction before salvation, not afterward.

I believe the church makes some of its members agnostics by the way it behaves, by the trends it gets caught up in, by the personality cult that sometimes develops around its leaders, by bad theology, bad discipleship, bad practices (such as an inordinate and misplaced commitment to political agendas), and personal relationships gone bad. But I believe that both Jesus and Paul made it pretty clear that those things are not capable of "plucking" anyone away from Christ himself, nor separating individuals from the love of God through Christ.

[Tim Bonney]

Arminian in theology here. Never been a Calvinist when I was a Baptist or otherwise. Feel free to point out the errors in Arminiansism if you'd like.

[Jason Wolfe]

[Jason Wolfe]

[Jason Wolfe]

[Jason Wolfe]

[Haruo]

[Haruo]

I believe that God is sufficiently creative to figure a way out to save everyone of their own free will. The Bible clearly teaches that God believes in creative accounting, since when Abraham needed righteousness but didn't have it per se, God accounted his faith as righteousness.

[Jason Wolfe]

[johnfariss]

Probably if you want to ask Calvinists about that, you should go to www.sbcvoices.com. A good many there, though not all by any stretch of the imagination, tend toward Calvinism. I think though they are tired of the arguments pro and con, so they may or may not engage with you.

John