My hymnal collection

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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby James » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:07 pm

I was looking today at one of my books on hymns. Its self proclaimed purpose is to list who in North America has hymnal collections which they want known to the public. The list is sorted by state giving the owner (institution or individual), number of hymnals and special emphasis of the collection. A few of us here would be in the top 100 if we listed our collections. Library of Congress leads the way with 16,000. Emory University in Atlanta, GA (my alma mater) is second with 15,000.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby Rvaughn » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:40 pm

What's the title of that book?
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby James » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:19 pm

Hymnal Collections of North America. Published 2003.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby Haruo » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:19 pm

There's a different book called HymnBOOK Collections of North America, but it's not clear to me if one is a revision of the other or what.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:32 am

James wrote:Hymnal Collections of North America. Published 2003.
Thanks!
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby Haruo » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:07 pm

Today, two copies of the 1873 edition of Christian Harmony (the 7-shape book compiled by William "Singin' Billy" Walker, earlier the compiler of the seminal 1835 4-shape book Southern Harmony) arrived in the mail, from two different sources.

David Flick sent me his old 1873 copy, which is beautiful, but too fragile to sing from properly. And simultaneously, a brand-new copy of the 2015 reprint arrived from the reprint people. Not near as spiritually steeped as David's but in perfect shape from which to sing. Now if I can find an 1873 CH singing...
CH1873x2.jpg


It's not as thick a book as the 2010 CH folks usually sing from these days.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:54 pm

Haruo wrote:Now if I can find an 1873 CH singing...
I think some of the singings back on the East Coast still use the 1873 book rather than the "Alabama" book or the combined book of 2010. All the singings I get to (which are in Mississippi, and one here in Texas) use the 2010 edition.
Haruo wrote:David Flick sent me his old 1873 copy, which is beautiful, but too fragile to sing from properly...
I'm curious about the history of David's copy. Was it used by someone he knew in Oklahoma? There is still one "sort of" Christian Harmony singing that survived in Arkansas.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby David Flick » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:23 am

Haruo wrote:David Flick sent me his old 1873 copy, which is beautiful, but too fragile to sing from properly...
    Rvaughn wrote:I'm curious about the history of David's copy. Was it used by someone he knew in Oklahoma? There is still one "sort of" Christian Harmony singing that survived in Arkansas.
      Actually, I don't know anything about the history of the book prior to my owning it. About 25 years ago, I was with my wife at a garage sale and was browsing though a bunch of old books and found it. I paid the grand sum of a quarter for it. I bought the book primarily for its antiquity, but partly because I thoroughly enjoy listening to a style of sacred music, which prior to 1968, I had never before heard. While attending Baptist Bible Institute (now Baptist College of Florida), I was introduced to Sacred Harp singing. I purchase one of those blue F. B. White Sacred Harp hymnals. I don't remember what version it was, but I spent many a Sunday afternoon going around the Panhandle of Florida and Southern Alabama sitting in the gallery listening to and following the words and tunes from the hymnal.

      When I bought the book Haruo now has, I wanted to rescue from the trash heap, which I figured would surely happen if it were not sold. I put it in an obscure place on my library shelf because it was so fragile and I didn't know anyone here in Oklahoma who would be interested in looking at the old book. So every time I moved, I thought about tossing it, but couldn't bring myself to do so because of it's antiquity. A couple of weeks ago when several of you were posting about hymnal collections, I got the bright idea of sending it to Haruo. He already has one hymnal of mine that was contributed to his collection. I thought he might also like this one as well.

      For whatever it's worth, that's my part of the book's history over the last 25 or so years. I don't know anything about the history of the 120 years prior to that. There are some names and such inside the cover, but I don't any of them.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:13 am

David Flick wrote:
      Actually, I don't know anything about the history of the book prior to my owning it. About 25 years ago, I was with my wife at a garage sale and was browsing though a bunch of old books and found it. I paid the grand sum of a quarter for it. I bought the book primarily for its antiquity, but partly because I thoroughly enjoy listening to a style of sacred music, which prior to 1968, I had never before heard. While attending Baptist Bible Institute (now Baptist College of Florida), I was introduced to Sacred Harp singing. I purchase one of those blue F. B. White Sacred Harp hymnals. I don't remember what version it was, but I spent many a Sunday afternoon going around the Panhandle of Florida and Southern Alabama sitting in the gallery listening to and following the words and tunes from the hymnal.

      When I bought the book Haruo now has, I wanted to rescue from the trash heap, which I figured would surely happen if it were not sold. I put it in an obscure place on my library shelf because it was so fragile and I didn't know anyone here in Oklahoma who would be interested in looking at the old book. So every time I moved, I thought about tossing it, but couldn't bring myself to do so because of it's antiquity. A couple of weeks ago when several of you were posting about hymnal collections, I got the bright idea of sending it to Haruo. He already has one hymnal of mine that was contributed to his collection. I thought he might also like this one as well.

      For whatever it's worth, that's my part of the book's history over the last 25 or so years. I don't know anything about the history of the 120 years prior to that. There are some names and such inside the cover, but I don't any of them.
Interesting information, David. The Christian Harmony has probably been out of use in Oklahoma for many years (though you never know what might turn up). On The Gateway to Oklahoma History I found this record of a Christian Harmony singing at the Methodist Church in Asher, Pottawatomie County, Oklahoma. The statement that it would be used exclusively may suggest that wasn't still common by that time (1913).
https://gateway.okhistory.org/ark:/67531/metadc858972/m1/1/zoom/?q=%22christian%20harmony%22%20singing&resolution=2&lat=1495.090820312501&lon=2048.6361083984375

Good to know you attended singings in Florida and Alabama. We have friends there. That would have been the 1960 edition of the B. F. White Sacred Harp if used in the late 60s and 70s. Did you ever attend at the old Carroll Church in Ozark, Alabama? It hosts the 3rd oldest continuing Sacred Harp singing convention in existence, the Southeastern Convention.

An instructor at OBU (can't remember his name at the moment) was doing some Sacred Harp singing with his students. He learned it from Warren Steel while at the University of Mississippi in Oxford. That instructor has since gone to the University of Oklahoma and I haven't heard what became of the Sacred Harp singing.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby James » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:56 pm

Haruo, I am making progress. Media rate will be somewhere between $20 and $30 per box. I just put everything in two boxes. If this is all right with you, I will mail them Monday. If you are at your computer and respond promptly, I will get them in the mail today and send you the total cost minus $10.00.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby James » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:20 pm

Some oddities worthy of note.

My son, for the last 20 years has given me a hymnal to add to my collection. Usually he finds one I do not have. Last Christmas he gave me the Methodist Hymnal 1905. I had been looking for this hymnal for years. It was a much criticked volume. We take our hymn singing seriously in the South.

The New Baptist Hymnal,1926, was jointly published by the American Baptist and the Southern Baptist, I have both editions and count them as different books. They are identical in every way with one exception. The tune for Amazing Grace is New Britain arr by Excel and called McIntosh not New Britain. The tune is the American Baptist Hymnal uses the tune Warwick which sounds like a Victorian parlor tune. It is a pleasant tune but not memorable. The importance of this hymnal was that it was the chapel hymnal at SBTS for years even into my time there which was after the publication of the '56 hymnal. It was the first "modern" Baptist hymnal to contain "Amazing Grace" to the New Britain tune. I know of no other denominational hymnal predating the '26 hymnal to have the text and tune together. I think this hymnal is the reason that Amazing Grace is America's favorite hymn.

Somewhere in my gospel song collections is a book written by a hell and damnation sawdust trail evangelist who wrote his own songs for use in his revivals. The cheerful ditty I remember recall events that may have actually happened. I do not believe that anyone could have made this up. It seems that a young man--good looking, smart and wealthy went to the tent to see the show. As the invitation was given, the young man began to move forward in response. His sister pulled him back and he did not go. Later in the evening he was killed in a carriage accident. Second verse, the sister realizing that she was the cause of his early death in an unsaved state, ran into the forest never to be seen again. Third verse, the mother realizing that both events resulted from her failing as a parent went completely and permanently insane. Forth verse, you better come forward now. You may not get another chance.

Haruo, the book on collections says the U of Alaska has copies of hymnals of the indigenous peoples of Alaska in their own language.

I have another book of hymnology that gives the Wesley's credit for preventing a bloody revolution in England to match the one in France. All of their singing brought a change in the nations morality and attitude. No longer could five year old children come into a bar to get a refill for daddy's beer bucket.

The music of the great hymns and gospel songs have a power that I do not find in contemporary church music and I do not like the bouncing ball. I am a product of my generation. My hymnals from which I sang at Knight's Baptist and Second Ponce De Leon Baptists were the Modern Hymnal, the Broadman Hymnal, and the '26 and '56 Baptist Hymnals. Someone at church asked me if any of the new stuff would be in hymnals of 2050, if we still had hymnals. I said one might survive--Because He Lives by the Gaithers for the final phrase rings true in any age. "Life is worth the living just because He lives."

I think it is time to close now. If you made it this far, thanks for reading.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby James » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:35 pm

The 1873 facsimile edition has a short history of the Christian Harmony in all its variations.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:26 pm

James wrote:The New Baptist Hymnal,1926, was jointly published by the American Baptist and the Southern Baptist, I have both editions and count them as different books...The tune in the American Baptist Hymnal uses the tune Warwick which sounds like a Victorian parlor tune. It is a pleasant tune but not memorable.
I remember seeing a copy of the northern version of the New Baptist Hymnal 40 or more years ago. It is the first time I could recall seeing Amazing Grace paired to something other than some arrangement of the New Britain tune. (Have seen it paired with others since then, but do not recall noticing such before.)
James wrote:It was the first "modern" Baptist hymnal to contain "Amazing Grace" to the New Britain tune.
In the context of what you write, how would you define "modern" and "Baptist" -- e.g. 20th century? Produced by a Baptist denominational body? Thanks.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby Haruo » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:01 am

As far as indigenous Alaskan hymnbooks go, I have one small collection in Tlingit. Would love to have some others.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:39 am

Rvaughn wrote:
James wrote:It was the first "modern" Baptist hymnal to contain "Amazing Grace" to the New Britain tune.
In the context of what you write, how would you define "modern" and "Baptist" -- e.g. 20th century? Produced by a Baptist denominational body? Thanks.
Following up on this, an arrangement of the New Britain tune, with all six stanzas of Newton's original "Amazing Grace" plus the "When we've been there ten thousand years" stanza appeared in The Baptist Standard Hymnal, with Responsive Reading: a New Book for All Services, Mrs. A. M. (Willa Ann) Townsend, editor. It would seem to me to be "modern". It was first published in 1924, had a full set set of indices (title, first line, tune, subject), as well as responsive readings. It is "Baptist" in title, published for Baptists by a Baptist denominational body, the Sunday School Board of the National Baptist Convention. Not sure whether this would qualify as a "modern" Baptist hymnal which contains "Amazing Grace" to the New Britain tune according to those who have previously determined that the SBC edition of The New Baptist Hymnal was first, why or why not.

The tune itself is a quite interesting arrangement by Mrs. Townsend's husband, Dr. A. M. Townsend. It has perhaps escaped notice because he used a different tune name (Willa, after his wife) and the melody is quite stylized compared to many versions of it. But a close comparison with the notes of the melody of New Britain will show it is the same tune. The song can be viewed here:
https://archive.org/details/baptiststandardh00town/page/427

"Amazing Grace" with the New Britain tune appears in several Primitive Baptist hymnals prior to 1926, but they may not qualify as modern. For example, Cayce's The Good Old Songs has it in 1913, but it is quite old style in that is a very much a compromise between a noted hymnal and the old words-only hymn book.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby James » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:09 am

Rvaughn, I plead ignorance on the national Baptist hymnal. I have a few of them, but not the one you mention. Modern in this context means 20th cent. Other denominational hymnals in my collection do not add A.G. until later in the cent to my knowledge, but what I think I know may not be 100% correct.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:42 pm

If just looking at modern as "20th century" then other hymnals outside the main Baptist bodies north and south included Amazing Grace with New Britain prior to 1926. C. H. Cayce's The Good Old Songs of 1913 is clearly intended as a denominational hymnal for Primitive Baptists, and it has the pairing. The Pilgrim's Hymnal, prepared for William H. Crouse in 1908 for the Progressive Primitive Baptists, probably had it. I say probably because I have never seen the first edition, but it is in later editions that I have seen with the tune name Harmony Grove (another name for the New Britain tune). Other Baptists in the south who compiled tune books likely used it if they were influenced by the shape note music of William Walker and B. F. White. In their book I Will Sing the Wondrous Story, Music and Richardson claim that William Walker in his 1835 Southern Harmony was the first to make a pairing of this hymn and tune.

I think all this in interesting, in that many people have assumed that Amazing Grace and New Britain have been wedded for time and eternity!
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby Haruo » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:12 pm

What I want to know is what they sang it to at Olney.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby James » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:52 pm

The point that I have been trying to make (and not very well) is that Amazing Grace made its entry into the big five denominations (Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and Lutherans) by way of the Baptist Hymnal of 1926. Yes it is in other hymnals but I do not believe the "main stream of American Protestantism" was heavenly influenced by Primitive Baptists or by Black Baptists in the first half of the 20th century. I did read somewhere that when the '56 hymnal was being compiled the preachers educated at SBTS insisted on the inclusion of Amazing Grace in new hymnal. These preachers learned to sing it and love it at SBTS and now it is the most well-known and popular hymn in America.

My favorite hymnal in my collection is the '56 hymnal. I lived with is and sung from it for nearly 50 years. I know it better than I know the Bible. So for all of you following this thread, what is your favorite hymnal?"

Second question, what in your opinion is the best hymnal? In my opinion, the best is the Mennonite Hymnal of 1992.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:37 pm

James wrote:The point that I have been trying to make (and not very well) is that Amazing Grace made its entry into the big five denominations (Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and Lutherans) by way of the Baptist Hymnal of 1926.
Yes, that is something of a different topic than which was the first modern Baptist hymnal to contain Amazing Grace with with the tune New Britain. I think you could be correct about the influence of the 1926 Baptist hymnal in influencing denominational leadership to include this in denominational hymnals. As far as people in Baptist, Methodist, and Presbyterian churches in the South, the people would have been long well acquainted with it prior to that time through their participation in shape note singing. In fact, I think that familiarity would likely explain why Southern Baptists substituted New Britain for Warwick. That doesn't take away from the influence of the New Baptist Hymnal, but I think explains a reason behind the choice.

James wrote:My favorite hymnal in my collection is the '56 hymnal. I lived with is and sung from it for nearly 50 years. I know it better than I know the Bible. So for all of you following this thread, "what is your favorite hymnal?"
Well, my preferred favorite songbook is The Sacred Harp, 2012 Cooper Edition, but that book has never been a primary hymnal in our churches. I have been a member of churches that used the American Baptist Hymnal, Broadman Hymnal, Favorite Songs and Hymns, Heavenly Highway Hymns, and Songs of Faith and Hope. Of these, my favorite is Favorite Songs and Hymns.

James wrote:Second question, what in your opinion is the best hymnal? In my opinion, the best is the Mennonite Hymnal of 1992.
Picking a best hymnal is a much different question, and I don't believe I have enough experience singing from enough different hymnals to pick out of out several that might qualify. I have a 15th printing (2009) of a Mennonite Hymnal copyrighted in 1969. Evidently different from the one you mention. I think it is very nice. I bought a book a few years ago called Songs of Faith by Double Oak Press in Mars Hill, North Carolina. I've never sung from it in church, but I was very impressed with its selection.

Your mileage probably varies, but if a book is not available in shape notes I don't consider it "a book of praise for all people."
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby Haruo » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:16 pm

I didn't know the ABA (no, not the lawyers' guild!) had their own hymnal. I just ordered a copy.

I think the ABA was the outfit Moz was with, any old-timers here remember if I'm right on that?
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby James » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:26 am

RV, The Mennonite Hymnal you have is the immediate predecessor to the '92 hymnal. I have both in my collection. There is a book Singing from the Mennonite Press which details how the Ms put the book together. Every M congregation on earth was consulted on what hymns to put in the book.

Judy and I went to all of the community hymn sing in Newport News for about six years and learned much from them about what they sing and why they sing it. Most of the Ms knew nothing about the connection between the English decenters who became Baptist and Ms. We are kissing cousins in our approach to the Bible and to Singing.

In the hymnal you have #606 is a long fuging doxology. My favorite song leader among the Ms told me if he had to walk into a convention center with 5,000 in attendance and quickly had to identify the Ms present he would call 606. All the Ms present would stand and sing from memory.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby Haruo » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:53 pm

Pew hymnals in churches I have regularly attended include [i]Christian Worship[/i] (Northern Baptist/DOC), [I]讃美歌[/I] (United Church of Christ in Japan, 1954) and, in the Sunday School, [I]こどもさんびか[/I] (same, 1966), [I]The Hymnbook [/I] (Presbyterian, 1955), [I]Hymns for the Living Church [/I] (Hope, 1974), [I]Hymns for the Family of God[/I] (Paragon, 1976), [I]The Hymnal for Worship & Celebration Hymnal[/I] (Word, 1986; this is still the pew hymnal at Fremont Baptist), [I]讃美歌︙讃美歌第二編[/I] (UCCJ, 1970), [I]讃美歌21[/I] (UCCJ, 1995), and [I] Celebration Hymnal [/I] (Word, 1997); these last two are the current pew hymnals at Japanese Baptist. The Sacred Harp singings I attend overwhelmingly use the 1991 Denson Edition. All of these have contributed hymns and/or settings that I consider essential to my dream hymnal. I've never had the good fortune to live in one of the rare places with regular, in-person worship services in Esperanto. The sporadic services I have attended have used [I]Adoru kantante[/I] (KELI, 1971) and/or [I]Adoru: Ekumena Diserva Libro[/I] (IKUE/KELI, 2001). Both of these as well as several other Esperanto hymnals would also contribute to my dream hymnal. And among my 516+ hymnals, there are probably fifty or so other hymns that I wouldn't want to do without.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby Haruo » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:54 pm

I wonder why it's not accepting my italics.
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Re: My hymnal collection

Postby Rvaughn » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:03 pm

Haruo wrote:I didn't know the ABA (no, not the lawyers' guild!) had their own hymnal. I just ordered a copy.

I think the ABA was the outfit Moz was with, any old-timers here remember if I'm right on that?
The (red back shape note) American Baptist Hymnal is the one I am familiar with, though the Association/Bogard Press/whoever have actually supplanted it with In Spirit and Truth, compiled by MMs who didn't like shape notes and some of the songs in the old book. At the time they came out with the new book, I heard they were going to phase out the American Baptist Hymnal. They haven't yet. I think the churches have not accepted the new book as well as they hoped. Which one did you buy? I own In Spirit and Truth as a songbook in my collection, but wouldn't give a dime for it as a book I wanted to use in church.

Yes, Brother Mark is in the American Baptist Association, at least nominally.
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