Amy Butler

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Re: Amy Butler

Postby KeithE » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:34 pm

William Thornton wrote:For clergy pay you have to add salary and housing. So $350k plus benefits. I don't care what a church pays their minister. I know of a couple of SBC churches that agreed to a year's severance.


Have you found the “half a million” severance pay for Butler?
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby Haruo » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:11 pm

KeithE wrote:
Haruo wrote:Life in the Big Apple is steep, even if Victoria's Secret is having a Prime Days sale in memory of Jeffrey Epstein. A 405K$ severance package will only last a few weeks there. Hope she has another gig lined up.

I must say I think it's appalling that a pastor, brick-and-mortar or virtual, would demand such an income. Even in NYC. Now I feel like I need to read a few of her sermons.


I think ministers (like teachers and nurses) should be paid more than they are. Good engineers at their prime are paid about $200K + $50K in 401 contributions. Specially-talented engineers or those that rise to upper management are paid more. Good ministers at large churches should be paid well into the 100’sK given their educational requirements and value to society. They should not be asked to sacrifice.

Note that Butler’s ~$350K total package is no where near what 100’s of CEOs make (over $10M/year that’s 30 times as much as Butler and 666 times that of min wage earners - that is obscene).

Highest paid CEOs.

Averagee CEO (all size companies) is a shade under $800K+ retirement and benefits)

Just my opinion, experience ion government-funded engineering, and sense of worth.

666 is an interesting multiplier.

I agree that pastors and teachers who are working full-time PLUS and are making less than 100K should be paid more than they are. But I think exaggerated income disparities are evil, and I'm agin 'em.

Pastors should not be rewarded for being "in it for the money", nor should pastors use corporate CEOs, many of whom are also compensated obscenely, as benchmarks to determine what to demand.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby William Thornton » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:34 pm

Haven't found it.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:48 am

William Thornton wrote:I think it's in one of the ny post stories. Insiders went to the NYT and post to. A year's salary and housing. Pretty sweet deal but they can afford it.


Yes, that is a signifiant severance. Am I understanding from what I read above that her salary (or pay package, not sure which?) was $350k? That is pretty far above what I'd consider a high paying clergy salary, much less an average.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby William Thornton » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:51 am

Rockefeller church. They can afford it.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:01 pm

William Thornton wrote:Rockefeller church. They can afford it.


Could be. I don't know what the shape of the endowment is or their annual budget. My church couldn't afford at all that and we have 1,300 members.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby Haruo » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:26 pm

Looks to me like one of the arguments for doing away with churches' property tax exemption. The land Riverside sits on, even if historic-landmark rules require the building to stay, is worth a heck of a lot of money.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby Sandy » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:30 am

I guess I'm a bit surprised by the incident at the conference in Minnesota which seems to be the catalyst for this. Yeah I know times have changed and this is one of the bastions of liberal Christianity, but I think there was a boundary that was crossed when it comes to the decorum and behavior expected of someone who is a senior pastor of a church, regardless of its theological perspective or denominational affiliation. There was a time and a place when ministers and church members alike were cautious about being seen in a restaurant that served alcohol or had a bar. Perhaps there were other things going on within the church as well, but I think Rev. Butler made a poor decision and set a poor example.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby William Thornton » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:38 am

Sandy wrote:I guess I'm a bit surprised by the incident at the conference in Minnesota which seems to be the catalyst for this. Yeah I know times have changed and this is one of the bastions of liberal Christianity, but I think there was a boundary that was crossed when it comes to the decorum and behavior expected of someone who is a senior pastor of a church, regardless of its theological perspective or denominational affiliation. There was a time and a place when ministers and church members alike were cautious about being seen in a restaurant that served alcohol or had a bar. Perhaps there were other things going on within the church as well, but I think Rev. Butler made a poor decision and set a poor example.


I'd guess that it was merely the trigger. As pastor, I would have not survived the incident.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:59 pm

Haruo wrote:Looks to me like one of the arguments for doing away with churches' property tax exemption. The land Riverside sits on, even if historic-landmark rules require the building to stay, is worth a heck of a lot of money.


I have mixed feeling about churches pay or not paying property tax. If Riverside were to pay property tax they’d probably have less money for the charitable work they do. So is that a wash? I understand the church and state arguments against it. But I also know a lot of churches could do a lot less for/in their community if their budget was strapped by property taxes.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:10 am

Since most communities give a property tax exemption to all non-profit organizations, the question of property tax becomes a wash in church/state arguments. I think William would only tax liberal churches with large endowments, surely not the crossroads churches all across Georgia.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:01 pm

Dave, did William say something about the property tax elsewhere? I haven't noticed that he mentioned it here.

Thanks.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby William Thornton » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:09 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:Since most communities give a property tax exemption to all non-profit organizations, the question of property tax becomes a wash in church/state arguments. I think William would only tax liberal churches with large endowments, surely not the crossroads churches all across Georgia.


Taxes I'd support:

Hil...political malpractice
Gatlinburg Gang: heavy fine for squandering their control of the SBC
All ex-SBCers....exit tax, except sandy
Verbal hemorrhage tax...Fox, trebled
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:07 pm

KeithE wrote:Have you found the “half a million” severance pay for Butler?
William Thornton wrote:Haven't found it.
Is this what y'all are looking for?
https://nypost.com/2019/07/12/riverside-church-pastor-set-to-receive-500k-payout-after-sex-toy-scandal/
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby Sandy » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:26 pm

I'm afraid I don't get the "golden parachute" deals that are given out in cases like this. The newspaper reports don't give specifics, but salary negotiations for a new contract weren't headed where she wanted prior to the incident at the sex toy store in Minnesota. Perhaps the church leadership didn't think she warranted a $100,000 raise and I'd have to agree with that in principle. I can't think of a scenario that would warrant that big of a raise in a church pastorate. That's a third of what she was already earning.

She made a bad choice, going to a sex toy shop with church members and staff members. I know she has been an icon of the moderate-to-liberal Baptists as one of the early female pastors in what was at the time an SBC pulpit at Calvary DC, and Riverside is a liberal church, but this was a mistake made in poor judgement if the Post's description of it is accurate. That has to be disappointing to some of her supporters.

Pastoring churches is not easy and I think that many of the women who emerged from the SBC and moved forward to pastor more moderate to liberal congregations were pretty idealistic at the outset, but have met with the same quagmire of issues that is part of church life, second guessing their own leadership decisions, content of sermons and watching out for events, issues and personal feelings of congregants that can turn south in a hurry. In some cases, issues became more complicated because they were women pastors in idealistic, progressive churches that had no real system of support for them as women, and no real precedent for dealing with those same kinds of problems. Several of those high profile individuals, Amy Butler among them, have been in situations that did not turn out well and which were more complicated because of their gender.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby William Thornton » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:16 am

Rvaughn wrote:
KeithE wrote:Have you found the “half a million” severance pay for Butler?
William Thornton wrote:Haven't found it.
Is this what y'all are looking for?
https://nypost.com/2019/07/12/riverside-church-pastor-set-to-receive-500k-payout-after-sex-toy-scandal/


Yes, thanks. Evidently, Keith missed the second post story.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby William Thornton » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:20 am

Sandy wrote:I'm afraid I don't get the "golden parachute" deals that are given out in cases like this. The newspaper reports don't give specifics, but salary negotiations for a new contract weren't headed where she wanted prior to the incident at the sex toy store in Minnesota. Perhaps the church leadership didn't think she warranted a $100,000 raise and I'd have to agree with that in principle. I can't think of a scenario that would warrant that big of a raise in a church pastorate. That's a third of what she was already earning.

She made a bad choice, going to a sex toy shop with church members and staff members. I know she has been an icon of the moderate-to-liberal Baptists as one of the early female pastors in what was at the time an SBC pulpit at Calvary DC, and Riverside is a liberal church, but this was a mistake made in poor judgement if the Post's description of it is accurate. That has to be disappointing to some of her supporters.

Pastoring churches is not easy and I think that many of the women who emerged from the SBC and moved forward to pastor more moderate to liberal congregations were pretty idealistic at the outset, but have met with the same quagmire of issues that is part of church life, second guessing their own leadership decisions, content of sermons and watching out for events, issues and personal feelings of congregants that can turn south in a hurry. In some cases, issues became more complicated because they were women pastors in idealistic, progressive churches that had no real system of support for them as women, and no real precedent for dealing with those same kinds of problems. Several of those high profile individuals, Amy Butler among them, have been in situations that did not turn out well and which were more complicated because of their gender.


Very well done, particularly the general observation on pastoring.

I'm ambivalent about what a church pays their pastor. The world of celeb pastors is a different world.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby Tim Bonney » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:24 am

William Thornton wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:Since most communities give a property tax exemption to all non-profit organizations, the question of property tax becomes a wash in church/state arguments. I think William would only tax liberal churches with large endowments, surely not the crossroads churches all across Georgia.


Taxes I'd support:

Hil...political malpractice
Gatlinburg Gang: heavy fine for squandering their control of the SBC
All ex-SBCers....exit tax, except sandy
Verbal hemorrhage tax...Fox, trebled


As I exited the SBC more than 25 years ago, I claim an exemption based on the statute of limitations. ;-)
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby Tim Bonney » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:26 am

Sandy wrote:I'm afraid I don't get the "golden parachute" deals that are given out in cases like this.


When a church gives such a large severance payment it often means the church is at fault in some way. I know of instances where the pastor had to sign a non-disclosure agreement to get the severance.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby JE Pettibone » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:48 am

ED: Yep, This kind of stuff it makes it tough on conservative to Moderate female pastors.


BTW Sandy Calvary BC in D.C is an ABC-USA Church and was such when Amy Butler was pastor there. If you go to the post card section of BL.C And go to Washington DC in the Index you will find Calvary and Shiloh Baptist Churches listed. Clicking on Calvary You will see 2 Pictures one is of the building and the other Is a brass plate stating that in1907 the Northern Baptist Convention was founded there.

The denominational name has since been changed twice

I took each of the DC church pictures while in DC for the joint ABC @ CBF meetings in 2007

It is true that AMY like many of us had once been Southern Baptist.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby Sandy » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:36 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:ED: Yep, This kind of stuff it makes it tough on conservative to Moderate female pastors.


BTW Sandy Calvary BC in D.C is an ABC-USA Church and was such when Amy Butler was pastor there. If you go to the post card section of BL.C And go to Washington DC in the Index you will find Calvary and Shiloh Baptist Churches listed. Clicking on Calvary You will see 2 Pictures one is of the building and the other Is a brass plate stating that in1907 the Northern Baptist Convention was founded there.

The denominational name has since been changed twice

I took each of the DC church pictures while in DC for the joint ABC @ CBF meetings in 2007

It is true that AMY like many of us had once been Southern Baptist.


Calvary Baptist Church in DC was dually affiliated with the ABC-USA and the SBC for a long period of time. At one point in its history, one of its members, Charles Evans Hughes served as President of the Northern Baptist Convention while another member, Brooks Hays, served as President of the Southern Baptist Convention. It was dually affiliated with the SBC when Amy Butler was called as pastor in 2003 and it was actually during her tenure as pastor, in 2012, when it severed its ties to the SBC. It actually has a longer history as a Southern Baptist church than its affiliation with ABC-USA.
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Re: Amy Butler

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:25 pm

Rvaughn wrote:Dave, did William say something about the property tax elsewhere? I haven't noticed that he mentioned it here.

Thanks.


William did not; Haruo and Tim did.
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Major unpacking of Butler's exit

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:28 pm

now at baptistnews.com
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Letter response

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:49 pm

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Re: Amy Butler

Postby William Thornton » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:46 am

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