Why Is the President being so Bold?

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

I had not read it and it gives hope to those who think they can't help themselves!

I am of the opinion that God knew what he was doing with the complimentary parts of men and women. I have no clue why anyone would want it any different than God designed us = perfectly matched.

On the other hand, there are those who find joy and some fulfillment with same-sex partners. I think they are missing something, but it is their life and body and none of us can demand they do different, if fulfilled.

All sexual relationships have both the physical and spiritual components. In my own experience as a heterosexual man married to a lovely and loving woman, I find greater fulfillment and excitement with each passing year. However, I can only speak for myself and my wife. I do not feel compelled to demand every human see it the same way.

There is a reverse aspect to the psychology of homophobia. It is entirely possible people get so bent out of shape who might suspect they are homosexual or have a problem with their lovemaking skills from either partner. Whenever anyone is too emotional and too judgmental, is usually means they must make themselves the judge of others rather than let each fellow human find joy and happiness as God authentically made them. Only that individual can know the answer.

"To thine own self be true," comes to mind.

[Ed Pettibone]

Gene S. "I am of the opinion that God knew what he was doing with the complimentary parts of men and women. I have no clue why anyone would want it any different than God designed us = perfectly matched.

On the other hand, there are those who find joy and some fulfillment with same-sex partners. I think they are missing something, but it is their life and body and none of us can demand they do different, if fulfilled."

Ed: Gene. I agree with your first statement above but the second is problematic. First how are you defining Fulfillment? In some way a rapist is fulfilled but we do not excuse them. And if you reread some of what I posted in the first post viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9985&p=135092&hilit=view#p135092 of the View and Read thread you will find that former homosexuals often admit that their motivation was frequently personal satisfaction. Many also feel that personal satisfaction was the motive of the individual who introduced them to the practice.

And where are we as Christians excused from calling sinners to repentance? Homosexuality like heterosexuality requires TWO individuals at the minimum, so the " it is their life and body" seems to be a smoke screen. Also we see a lot in these discussions about monogamous relationships but at least one of the links I provided suggest that relatively few homosexual relationships are monogamous.

and when you say "To thine own self be true," comes to mind, I will suggest that to be true to ourselves we first must be true to GOD.

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

And what if God made you different????

Your reading is restricted to the side you want to think is the only side when it's simply NOT!

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed---

And what if God made you different????

Your reading is restricted to the side you want to think is the only side when it's simply NOT!

Ed: And what if God made me different than what? Apparently you have not paid very close attention to many of my post when you make the incredulous claim that my reading " is restricted to the side you want to think is the only side...." . You are wrong about both my reading and the idea that I think there is only one side. In this case I simply took time to cut and past some stuff that is contrary to most of what gets posted in these threads for all to see.

And I do however think that you and many of the folk you parrot ( I say parrot, because I have yet to see an original idea from you on this subject), have neglected the testimony of folk who lived for varied periods of time as homosexuals and have eventually given it up. Your argument if you had one should be with them. I have made no statement about their material I only gathered some of it and presented it here.

Some of what I posted this morning was done as I was marveling at how little physical labor was expended by a crew cutting a few trees in my neighbors yard across the street. They had a bunch of what must be state of the art equipment. At least three trucks I world guess at three, maybe 4 tons and a half ton pick up driven by the the boss man. Plus an equipment trailer probably 24 by 7 by 7 Pulled by one of the larger trucks.
The machine that intrigued me looked something like Vermeer Stump grinder. I did not see it working but what first caught my attention was when it first came into view it looked like there was no operator. It turned out he was 10 or 12 feet behind it with a remote in his hand, he lined it up with the equipment trailer ramps and it moved into the trailer on its own. Another fellow was picking up large pieces of gnarled limbs maybe 4 foot long and 8 to 10 inches around, with an articulating boom lift, mounted to the back of his truck. The hardest manual work I saw being done was feeding perhaps 7 foot by two inch branches, leaves and all into the chipper. I had heard them loading some heavier stuff before that, but had not stopped to watch. They raked up the area and swept the street by hand. Had I not seen them pull in and had I not heard and watched . I might never have know they had been here there is a spot maybe 4 x 10 that from over here looks like some on had prepared a flower bed and filled it with mulch.

[Gene Scarborough]

Tree work is always interesting. The Stump Cutter you describe is new technology and likely costs $30-50K. You can spend a bunch in a hurry on equipment. My cheapest saw is $550 and ropes cost $150 and up.

As to sexual orientation, I am just requesting you consider people who are genuine in their same-sex orientation and need to be left alone to pursue their happiness and joy in life.

With all the busted marriages anymore, it's hard for any youngster to see both male and female parents in a good role model and sexual outlook. Therein, I think, lies the greatest problems today.

[Ed Pettibone]

Tree work is always interesting. The Stump Cutter you describe is new technology and likely costs $30-50K. You can spend a bunch in a hurry on equipment. My cheapest saw is $550 and ropes cost $150 and up.

As to sexual orientation, I am just requesting you consider people who are genuine in their same-sex orientation and need to be left alone to pursue their happiness and joy in life.

With all the busted marriages anymore, it's hard for any youngster to see both male and female parents in a good role model and sexual outlook. Therein, I think, lies the greatest problems today.

Ed: Gene I bought into that live and let live routine for a long time. Until they started monopolizing TV. And what does it mean to you for some one to be genuine in their same sex orientation. How about folk who are genuine in their Polygamy. Or their incestuous relationships.

And you comment about "all the busted marriages anymore" is as much hype as reality". While the divorce rate has gone up somewhat (les than 3%) in the past fifty years the number of persons divorced even once has gone down since the early 1940's. This is because half of all divorces in the U.S. are 2nd, third, forth or more for at least one of the pair. Nearly 70% of all persons 55 years old who have ever been married are still married to their first spouse. And while it is also true that more people are opting to never marry, 97% of all Americans do it at least once.

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

I join you in disgust over the "token queers" in most sitcoms. In a way they are funny. In another they are sordid and stupid.

Maybe the reason we laugh at them is because we know they don't know what they are missing married to a good oppostite-sex partner.

Maybe we should say that people are striving so hard for a physical "thrill" they have no clue that real thrills come when spiritual connections are made between people and God as they join lives together and raise healthy children.

Never take my encouragement to be more loving and accepting for condoning the sickness in society today

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed---

I join you in disgust over the "token queers" in most sitcoms. In a way they are funny. In another they are sordid and stupid.

Maybe the reason we laugh at them is because we know they don't know what they are missing married to a good oppostite-sex partner.

Maybe we should say that people are striving so hard for a physical "thrill" they have no clue that real thrills come when spiritual connections are made between people and God as they join lives together and raise healthy children.

Never take my encouragement to be more loving and accepting for condoning the sickness in society today

Ed: That phrase in quotes in your first sentence brackets your words not mine. And again I am not in you editorial we. And your last two sentences make NO sense to me. Being an enabler of another's sin is not loving and to claim that nothing can be done about it is condoning.

Edited to change enable to enabler and to make another, possessive by adding('s) in the last paragraph.

[Gene Scarborough]

Never take my encouragement to be more loving and accepting for condoning the sickness in society today

Better worded: I am trying to be loving and understanding. I am not condoning the sickness in society today.

It was a little awkward in composition, Ed.

[Gene Scarborough]

Conservative California Christian College reveals hidden Gay and Lesbian Society:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/24/11833663-underground-gay-group-emerges-shaking-evangelical-christian-college?lite

LA MIRADA, Calif. -- On the same day President Obama became the first U.S. president to come out in support of same-sex marriage, a group of students announced the presence of the "Biola Queer Underground" at this small evangelical university, touching off a highly-charged debate about Christianity and homosexuality.

The group launched a website and posted flyers around the Biola University campus May 9 with the following message: "We want to bring to light the presence of the LGBTQ community at Biola. Despite what some may assume, there are Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, Transgender, and Queers at Biola. We are Biola's students, alumni, employees, and fellow followers of Christ. We want to be treated with equality and respected as another facet of Biola's diversity."

The emergence of the group, whose members remain anonymous, has shaken this 104-year-old Christian college in Southern California. Like many schools rooted in evangelical Christianity, Biola has a code of standards that includes prohibitions on sex outside of marriage and same-sex relationships: Sex is "designed by God to be expressed solely within a marriage between a husband and wife," according to Biola's student handbook, which goes on to say that "sexual misconduct, depending on the facts and circumstances of each case will result in disciplinary action."

So here is your example of the strength of homosexuality in the face of college rules and the rules get pushed to the side for a hidden expression of that urge. The college has a problem!!!

To me it is better to face it straight on and decide whether Jesus would define homosexuality as did the Jews. If is is in the same New Testament change to eating regulations / marriage practices / OT laws put aside----then should it be allowed in the open without it being defined as "sin."

It is certain to claim one thing and do another is both sin and hipocracy.

[Ed Pettibone]

Never take my encouragement to be more loving and accepting for condoning the sickness in society today

Better worded: I am trying to be loving and understanding. I am not condoning the sickness in society today.

It was a little awkward in composition, Ed.

Ed: Yea, note I have edited my post, where I say the being an enabler of someone's sin is not loving. So tell me Gene what in your frame of reference does it mean to be "loving and understanding"? I cognitively understand their belief that they where born that way and nothing can be done about it but I am convinced that their belief is in error.

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

I am not convinced so we "agree to disagree."

[Gene Scarborough]

The SBC finally whispers a word on the gay bashing issue:

http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/BPnews.asp?ID=37894

SOUTHLAKE, Texas (BP) -- The Southern Baptist Convention's national strategist for gender issues has released a statement condemning the harsh language of two independent Baptist pastors from North Carolina whose remarks on homosexuals and gender identity have gone viral on the Internet.

The controversial statements came from pastors of churches not affiliated with the 16-million-member Southern Baptist Convention but "they still stand as reminders to us -- not only pastors, but all believers -- that above all else we must represent the heart of Christ," wrote Bob Stith, a retired pastor in Southlake, Texas, who has served the SBC in the gender issues role since 2007.

Stith, who has said he was once "negative and condemning" toward homosexuals, wrote in a May 23 statement released by the SBC's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission that Southern Baptists seek to be "proactive and redemptive in reaching out to those who struggle with unwanted same-sex attractions."

Why so long????
Why not Richard Land???

[Ed Pettibone]

The SBC finally whispers a word on the gay bashing issue:

http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/BPnews.asp?ID=37894

SOUTHLAKE, Texas (BP) -- The Southern Baptist Convention's national strategist for gender issues has released a statement condemning the harsh language of two independent Baptist pastors from North Carolina whose remarks on homosexuals and gender identity have gone viral on the Internet.

The controversial statements came from pastors of churches not affiliated with the 16-million-member Southern Baptist Convention but "they still stand as reminders to us -- not only pastors, but all believers -- that above all else we must represent the heart of Christ," wrote Bob Stith, a retired pastor in Southlake, Texas, who has served the SBC in the gender issues role since 2007.

Stith, who has said he was once "negative and condemning" toward homosexuals, wrote in a May 23 statement released by the SBC's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission that Southern Baptists seek to be "proactive and redemptive in reaching out to those who struggle with unwanted same-sex attractions."

Why so long????
Why not Richard Land???

Ed: Gene ask why so long, and I would ask how soon does Gene think they should have responded? Ten days to me does not seem 'so long" to put together a reasoned response. And there response does seem as reasoned or more so than many I have seen.

Gene ask why not Richard Land, and i would ask WHY Richard Land when they have a group of folk of whom Bob Stith is one who has been working on a task force of So.Baptist to develop appropriate ways to deal Gender issues.

I do think the full context of the statement released by the SBC's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission may have been better, with out a BP explanation.
And yes I think perhaps some within the SBC are finally seeing Land as a liability.

[Sandy]

The SBC finally whispers a word on the gay bashing issue:

http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/BPnews.asp?ID=37894

SOUTHLAKE, Texas (BP) -- The Southern Baptist Convention's national strategist for gender issues has released a statement condemning the harsh language of two independent Baptist pastors from North Carolina whose remarks on homosexuals and gender identity have gone viral on the Internet.

The controversial statements came from pastors of churches not affiliated with the 16-million-member Southern Baptist Convention but "they still stand as reminders to us -- not only pastors, but all believers -- that above all else we must represent the heart of Christ," wrote Bob Stith, a retired pastor in Southlake, Texas, who has served the SBC in the gender issues role since 2007.

Stith, who has said he was once "negative and condemning" toward homosexuals, wrote in a May 23 statement released by the SBC's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission that Southern Baptists seek to be "proactive and redemptive in reaching out to those who struggle with unwanted same-sex attractions."

Why so long????
Why not Richard Land???

I think the statement contains the answer to your first question. "The controversial statements came from pastors of churches not affiliated with the 16 million member Southern Baptist Convention. "So why would there be some kind of response expected? I do not see any response from CBF, nor from ABC-USA.

[Timothy Bonney]

I think the statement contains the answer to your first question. "The controversial statements came from pastors of churches not affiliated with the 16 million member Southern Baptist Convention. "So why would there be some kind of response expected? I do not see any response from CBF, nor from ABC-USA.

Sandy if the ABC-USA responded to every bizarre thing either Independent Baptists or the SBC did they'd have to pay someone full-time just to write all the copy.

[Haruo]

I'm available

[Timothy Bonney]

I'm available

Where is the "like" button?

[Gene Scarborough]

Kindly note the statement from Bill Leonard who is a respected member of CBF:

http://www.abpnews.com/opinion/item/7444-a-baptist-shame

North Carolina remains a church/state battleground over Amendment One, an addition to the state constitution that declares that marriage is between one man and one woman. On May 8, 2012, the amendment passed by over 60 percent majority.

Yet for reasons that mystify, this Independent Baptist preacher’s remarks go far beyond the amendment, President Obama’s recent announcement on such issues, voting one’s conscience or even differences of opinion that divide Christian brothers and sisters.

Pastor Worley said things that are repugnant in any Christian pulpit, that shame the name Baptist and undercut the gospel itself. Although I’ve sometime been embarrassed to be a Baptist, until now I’ve never really been ashamed.

I remain haunted by the courage of those early Baptists who, for reasons I cannot fully comprehend, looked beyond their historical context to the vision of a believers’ church, uncoerced faith, freedom of conscience and transformation through Christ.

But tonight I am ashamed, because I heard a Baptist pastor say things so abhorrent to the gospel of Jesus that I could not keep conscience with my Baptist forebears and remain silent. In what appears to be a May 13 sermon, Charles Worley declared: "Build a great, big, large fence -- 150 or 100 mile long -- put all the lesbians in there," Then he continues: "Do the same thing for the queers and the homosexuals and have that fence electrified so they can't get out. Feed them, and you know what, in a few years, they'll die out. Do you know why? They can't reproduce!"

CBF has no official ethics body or position. Richard Land and the SBC Ethics Committe are absolutely silent. One other member of the SBC has protested and noted both NC pastors are Independent Baptists. Dispite all this, the average person thinks "Baptists are the same everywhere" = hard headed bigots who love racism and homophobia.

[Sandy]

Kindly note the statement from Bill Leonard who is a respected member of CBF:

http://www.abpnews.com/opinion/item/7444-a-baptist-shame

North Carolina remains a church/state battleground over Amendment One, an addition to the state constitution that declares that marriage is between one man and one woman. On May 8, 2012, the amendment passed by over 60 percent majority.

Yet for reasons that mystify, this Independent Baptist preacher’s remarks go far beyond the amendment, President Obama’s recent announcement on such issues, voting one’s conscience or even differences of opinion that divide Christian brothers and sisters.

Pastor Worley said things that are repugnant in any Christian pulpit, that shame the name Baptist and undercut the gospel itself. Although I’ve sometime been embarrassed to be a Baptist, until now I’ve never really been ashamed.

I remain haunted by the courage of those early Baptists who, for reasons I cannot fully comprehend, looked beyond their historical context to the vision of a believers’ church, uncoerced faith, freedom of conscience and transformation through Christ.

But tonight I am ashamed, because I heard a Baptist pastor say things so abhorrent to the gospel of Jesus that I could not keep conscience with my Baptist forebears and remain silent. In what appears to be a May 13 sermon, Charles Worley declared: "Build a great, big, large fence -- 150 or 100 mile long -- put all the lesbians in there," Then he continues: "Do the same thing for the queers and the homosexuals and have that fence electrified so they can't get out. Feed them, and you know what, in a few years, they'll die out. Do you know why? They can't reproduce!"

CBF has no official ethics body or position. Richard Land and the SBC Ethics Committe are absolutely silent. One other member of the SBC has protested and noted both NC pastors are Independent Baptists. Dispite all this, the average person thinks "Baptists are the same everywhere" = hard headed bigots who love racism and homophobia.

Well, the SBC is obviously not "absolutely silent." It's designated spokesperson on such issues has made a statement. That's more than CBF has done, because in spite of the fact that Bill Leonard is a member of a CBF supporting church, he is not their official spokesperson for anything and considering his remarks as being on behalf of CBF is diametrically opposed to their position on local church autonomy. On the other hand, Bob Stith is the SBC's designated spokesperson on gender roles, though he speaks only for the executive committee, and not for any other Southern Baptist. And where is Robert Parham, who is head of an agency that is in a direct partnership with CBF and is largely funded by them? His pontifications on a variety of social and denominational issues are at least as shrill and as frequent as Al Mohler.

Land's agency is the ERLC with a mission to lobby on behalf of the church related to religious liberty issues. Commenting on a sermon preached in a church that is not in cooperation with the SBC on an issue that has nothing to do with the church's religious liberty would be outside of the ERLC's mission and purpose. I think Parham's silence has a lot to do with the fact that he can't seem to find a purpose for his agency except where it involves bashing the SBC, and since Worley is not Southern Baptist, Parham isn't interested.

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

It really kills you that a group of autonomous churches has no spokesman!

Get over it. Baptists have no Pope nor Bishop to tell us what to do. I think the fact that CBF-related people in NC are disgusted with the fundy Independent Baptists spouting hate and venom is enough to say: "Get a life and shut your filthy Nazi mouth! This has no place in a free society trying to avoid prejudice."