"Green technology pollutes the planet"

[ET]

Dave, I don't buy into the "peak oil" stuff. As I've already stated, there were multiple predictions in the last century about running out of oil and they were all wrong. Nor would I agree with such a statement - although it was probably said a bit tongue-in-cheek just to tweak someone - that we can use it all up because Jesus is coming back.

Who says we're "wasting" anything? What God put in the ground is able to provide people with inexpensive methods of transportation and heating and cooling of their homes. THE main purposes of prices in a free market is to allocate resources. When gas prices rise, people are more apt to adjust their behavior and consume less. If oil supplies or coal ever do really start to run out, then the price will go up accordingly and people will demand products or adjust their lives to consume less energy. They may walk to get places, ride a bike, carpool or buy a smaller house that doesn't require as much heating and cooling energy. In short, the best way to conserve the resources God has given us is to let the free market do its thing.

I also say explore all the alternatives we want. Just don't put a handful of bureaucrats in charge of selecting the winners and losers. My utility company allows folks to pay more on their utility bill in order to (supposedly, at least) choose to get or support electricity from wind and solar power. If folks want to do that, then that's fine with me. However, for a president or speaker or majority leader to stand up in front of a crowd and tell us that "green jobs are the future" shows nothing but arrogance and vanity that they should think they possess the knowledge of such matters. They no more know what the future holds than the guy sweeping the factory floor.

As for TVA, yes, my part of the country has benefited from it, but that doesn't mean government spent money in the best manner nor in a way that would have benefited the most people in the a way that best meets their needs. If left to choose on their own, the people of this country might have spent their money on something other than TVA projects because they deemed other pursuits more worthy of their spending. Thus, in the end, having TVA may actually be an inferior benefit, which brings me to...

Government does not need to take a role. Why would we need to it take on such a role? Do the people in D.C. possess some superior wisdom over the rest of us? Do they have some crystal ball to view the future and tell all us uneducated rubes what's best for us? The implication of your statement is that somehow the ruling class in D.C. is somehow in possession of knowledge that provides them with the ability to tell us what will be best for us in 25, 50 or 100 years. There is very little in the history of human government that provides me with any confidence that government bureaucrats can plan what's best for our future. They can't even balance a budget.

[ET]

[KeithE]

[ET]

[KeithE]

[ET]

Are those jobs like the "shovel-ready" jobs that Obama laughingly admitted weren't there after using that phrase to spend BILLIONs of dollars? ? Did you intentionally overlook the article about FirstSolar, the largest solar company in the world is laying off people and moving to locations where they don't have to rely on subsidies?

Are you completely ignoring the fact that the current economic/housing mess can be directly tied to the government guaranteeing loans on mortgages? Now you want the government to manipulate the energy market with loan guarantees?

So you want to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.

According to the , the cost of a solar water heater - independent of one to generate electricity - costs $6000-9000 just to heat your water Tax credits can cover half the cost.

Estimated savings is $150-300 for a family of 4. So best case scenario is approximately $3000 for installation with a savings of $300/yr for a family of four....a 10 year ROI, best case, if you spend $300/month heating water. Our entire utility bill is barely $300 some months, so the ROI is not there without a much bigger "alternative energy welfare check" to put the thing in.

Then there's electricity: tack on another $7000-9000 per KW for an electric system. A 2KW systems can save 15-20% on electricity.

We spend about $35-40 a month to heat water for a family of 5. We spend about $300/month on electricity on a large house (4200 sq ft), and I'm sure I can do some work on insulating the house better.

According to , they have an estimate of about $52000 for a 6kW solar installation. The ROI for their estimation is 29 years if one assumes a property value increase due to the solar power install, 36 years without it, and that assumes you stay in the house for 30 years while you pay off the 30 years loan assumed to be taken out to pay for the install. We have a gas water heater, so I have no idea if this scenario switches the water heater to the solar system or not. I'd rather have a gas water heater than a a solar-powered electric any day (I also note here that the Portland solar link mentions that solar - at least up there - won't heat water to the desirable temp in the winter.)

The numbers look to be about 3 years old based on the comments section, but I doubt the figures have gotten much better recently. Thanks, but no thanks.

The numbers are nowhere near adding up.

P.S. None of this takes into account the use of foam insulation in some newer houses. My A/C guy used foam insulation in the walls and roof of his house and says his A/C only runs about 15 minutes per hour on the hottest summer days that the Memphis climate can throw at him. Not cheap, but far less expensive than solar.

[ET]

Here's another couple of articles on some of these government imposed/sponsored "solutions":


Toyota took a loss to sell the Prius when it came out. Government Motors relies on taxpayers.

and some Republican goofiness compliments of GW Bush and fellow Republicans:

I sure would love to play around with a Volt, though. Too much techno-geek in it to not make it a fascinating product. Although I'm not sure I'd care to have to subscribe to OnStar in order to enjoy playing with the smartphone app.

[Gene Scarborough]

ET---

Bush was an Oil man---no holds bared!

Obama is still subsurvient to his backers who are still hidden in the crap of Contributor Regulations revealing NOTHING!

We need a new and fresh bunch of Representatives and TERM LIMITS in my view!

[KeithE]

[KeithE]

[KeithE]

Hey something got screwed up and I deleted ET's last post. Most of it is embedded in my last post (some at the end with Mencken and Webster quotes has been lost-my apologies). I've tried to recover it but cannot/don't know how.

It seems that since I became a Moderator it acts differently. When I looked at my last post, it showed up as being from ET with his picture. So I copied it and reposted under my name and then went back and deleted the one I thought had the wrong author, but it deleted ET's post. I think what happened was I mistakenly edited ET's post instead of quoting it interspersing my comebacks.

My apologies.

[Gene Scarborough]

"Power corrupts / absolute power corrupts absolutely" -------Moderators RULE!!

[ET]

[Gene Scarborough]

ET---

It is a "no brainer" to recognize 3 basic things:

1) We are polluting this planet with current fuel sources
2) There is an end point to fossel fuels running out
3) Industrialists ALWAYS seek the most profitable route over preserving natural resources / being environmentally friendly

I live right across the river from a gigantic phospate plant (largest in the US). Smoke boils out of their stacks so there is a constant cloud of steam (I assume) above them. Were it not for EPA inspections who knows what might be in it. They produce the most concentrated Phosphoric Acid in the industry to accomplish chrome plating invented by an English scientist.

Would you want to work there if there were no protective gear and numerous safety rules to protect the environment and people? Would you want to live here if it were revealed that toxins were being released going over the Pamlico Sound / Outer Banks / Atlantic ocean and seeping into the water as it settles to earth?

You etherial theories are just that---THEORIES.

Somehow you need to get some common sense and admit---we need to be careful of the planet. When industry moves to South America and Third World Countries, the motivation is both cheap labor and fewer environmental regulations = greater profits for those who own the companies and their stockholders.

I am bored to tears with the obtuse and technical "proofs" of your theory when my own nose tells me pollution is dangerous to my health and yours as well. I am glad I don't live in LA where smog produced by fossil fuels in autos and the trapping effect of those mountains and valleys makes eyes water and obscures the nearby mountain beauty!!!!

DUH!!!!!

[KeithE]

[Gene Scarborough]

ET would probably applaude another spate of weapons of war and mass destruction~ R&D for killing quick and bloody!

[Ed Pettibone]

[David Flick]

[KeithE]

[KeithE]

As for he is a retired Western Washington University prof who ahas been a long term denialist as shown by his appearance on Glenn Beck. Even his old Department at WWU has renounced his views. Now being a denialist does not automatically discredit a person as far as I'm concerned; but they do have to show some DATA to make their points which Easterbrook did not do in David's referenced article.

Already posted where the ENSO, solar variability and volcanoe influences are removed from the 1979-2010 DATA ( 3 land based measurements [NASA/GISS, NOAA/NCDC, HadCRU] datasets along with two satellite datasets[UAH and RSS]) that showed the presumably human caused portion has increased steadily throughout the 1979 - 2010 data with all datasets:
.
Note all datasets tell the same basic story.

But please read the article if you are at all interested.

[ET]

[Gene Scarborough]

ET---

Your number sounds interesting, but is hardly supported with any statistics.

None of us wants to ban automobiles, but all of us should vote to make them less polluting! It appears that is being done in the US---but not other places on this earth. The same is true of clear cutting SA rain forrests to keep from super-heating hurricanes as they pass by that continent and bust us worse in the future!

Every major move to make this planet last is commendable in my view. It will take R&D to accomplish it. That should be paid for by energy and polluting companies rather than average taxpayers. Sadly, most such companies value profits over kindness to the environment.

You are a smart person so do you have any recommendations to address such issues?

[ET]

[David Flick]

[KeithE]