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Gene S. Writes "Just because someething is deemed "legal" does not make it "moral."

Ed: Amen! That's what I say about New York's new Same sex marriage law.

Keith---

I know you care as much as me that wrongs be righted.

Your observation that it still contiunes under Obama leads me to wonder what we are really up to!

It certainly does not benefit our image in front of the world at this critical time in human history. We righted voter abuse, but it took marches and public outcries to become a reality. Then we have become obsessive with "minority upholding" to the point our Welfare system has created a monster of non-work.

Can we ever find normal ethics and wise corrections in government?
Are we really in the last days----and it could be of our own making!!!!

The primary definition of torture: “anguish of body or mind: AGONY: something that causes agony or pain.” Obviously, the subject is so susceptible to being just what anyone says it is that it’s hard to come up with a statement regarding what any “torture” action is. A student sent to the principle’s office for an offense, real or imagined, suffers anguish of mind in dreading the encounter and may suffer anguish of body (pain) if corporeally punished. Yet, this has been standard procedure in days gone by and remains so, depending on the school district. The infliction of discomfort applied in this case has always been referenced as discipline, certainly not torture. Ditto for discipline within the family.

Imprisonment itself probably causes anguish of mind (not to mention prison-food), except perhaps for the people for whom it’s a way of life, so should it be discontinued as too insensitive to be “American?” The production of some sort of “agony” is always the aim of disciplinary action; otherwise, it would not be used as a tool for guarding against anarchy.

This leaves one with having to decide how people known or suspected of having information that could save lives should be treated. In nearly, if not all, countries in/with which the U.S. has had conflicts, the subject of torture is of no importance, notwithstanding any “legal” document such as issued by the UN or through Geneva Convention instruments. This totally negates the argument that the U.S. should not use “torture” so that U.S. POWs will not be tortured. Torture is a way of life for enemies of the U.S., who laugh at any document that attempts to control their actions. If they do not mistreat Americans, it’s because of the fear of reprisal, and they don’t care what this country does to any of their people captured by the U.S., especially since they often do not hesitate to treat their own citizens/soldiers in horrific ways. The Muslims are a good example.

I believe that anything short of physical injury or death is allowable – sleep deprivation, temporary withholding of food, loud noise, dread, solitary confinement, uncomfortable positions, water-boarding, anything short of a cat-o-nine-tails. The objective of interrogation is the production of enough mostly mental agony to convince the prisoner that his silence is not worth it. Even Khalid, who was water-boarded (obviously neither injured nor killed) a number of times decided it wasn’t worth it, and he delivered much information, even though he knew or at least highly suspected he would not be injured or killed. He also knew that U.S. law disallowed actual torture or death. His collegiate education was acquired in North Carolina. The caterwauling about alleged torture, especially in this forum, is silly. It’s doubtful that most Americans pay it much attention, and if the lives of Obama’s family depended on extracting information from an individual, he would not hesitate – nor would I and most people in this forum – to break out the lash, electric current or whatever else might do the job. This points to HYPOCRISY with respect to the caterwauling.

Torture is Counterproductive and does not garner reliable and actionable intelligence (which is the usual justification)













And speaking of KSM and how he was thought to be so valuable as a source of actionable intelligence, one has to wonder why Osama himself was supposedly killed and thrown into the sea and not captured and interrogated/tortured to gather more intel or extract a unquestionable 9/11 confession. Could it be the US has learned that torture is counterproductive? - naw since they are still torturing many (KSM, Bradley Manning to mention two). I also note that none of the public interviews with Osama's wives which were promised soon after the raid (as proof of the killing) have happened - show me a YouTube or any such proof if you can.

I'm getting closer to saying that the supposed killing of Osama was a staged event.

Tell you what, Jim----let me beat the crap out of you and put you behind bars with no legal charges and let's see what you say then!!!! How about letting you try to beathe behind a water-soaked cloth!!!!

You argument and statements are a hair-splitting diatribe from an ivory tower, in my view!!!

I was jailed in Mobile, ALA, when chasing hurricane Katrina. It was a totally bogus charge, but I spent 10 days in their jailhouse with worse food than my grandaddy slopped his hogs with! On top of that their city jail is infested with vermin / overcrowded / full of mentally abusive jailers. In that 10 days I could not work my Bobcat for 10 hours a day at $200 an hour to get debris to the road for FEMA pick up. Do the math on that one for a man going at his own personal espense! That is NOTHING compared with the practices at Guantanamo and other places of detention where anyone even looking Islamic has been arrested and sent under the Bush Administration's malfiecense.

I was not just mad, but mad as HELL!!! I am a white male southern citizen of this country! I went there to help and was charging less than the local tree workers. My wife literally thought I was dead for 5 days because their jailhouse pay-phone does not work except with a recipient who has a credit card. When I went to the local paper with my story, they could care less. When I went to the FBI complainig of violation of my civil rights, it was the same. Go to Mobile and go back 40-60 years in the American justice system, then maybe you will get a clue about misuse of power and abuse of the rights of others who happen, in my case, to have a NC diver's liscense rather than be a "good old boy" from Mobile county.

NEED I SAY MORE ABOUT MY VIEW OR YOUR CALOUSED SENSE OF WHAT SHOULD BE JUST AND FAIR under George W. Bush??? Obtuse bull does not come close to any answer or excuse on this one--in my opinion, of course.

Quite to contrary, Jim---I bow at your feet of NON-CONCERN and "Don't give a dam!!!" A "tinker's dam" so it ain't cussin'!!!!!!

Now---are we people of integrity and fairness even to prisoners / are we becoming a re-incarnation of Nazi Germany in its treatment of Jews / homosexuals / gypsies?????

Now---write me a poem, Jim, to complete your day of obfuscation!!!

If you will ever look on the other side of things, you might discover that our tanks and troops rolling on foreign soil is tantamount to Hitler's blitzkreig on Poland and France.

Again, if you ever get arrested on false pretenses and against US rules of Civil Rights / and have german shepherds held by Selma, ALA, cops bite your ass while they shoot you with firehoses----you might just have a clue. We aren't as nice as we pretend---even on our own soil!!!!

Verse = "A" which stands for "acceptable!"

Logic = "D" which stands for "dumb!"

I don't have a halo / never had one / but I do happen to have a brain which sees things from more than 1 side!!!!!

If it's any comfort, Jim, Emory University was the only nationally recognized school which did an "Affirmation Viet Nam" rally in the Atlanta Stadium (in 1967) which was well-attended in the conservative South. The student who conceived and produced it was named Fox (no kin to Stephen) and became one of the school administrators at Emory until his recent retirement!

We, at least, produce "intelligent rednecks" at Emory!!!!