What's wrong with the economy?

[KeithE]

[ET]

And in rebuttal: .

[Dave Roberts]

The point has been made that the last TV character who was a working husband with a stay-at-home wife was Archie Bunker from "All in the Family." He provided for his family on the loading dock. Where are there any loading dock jobs today that provide for a family?

[Gene Scarborough]

Robert Reich is an astute analyst not into Republican economic dreaming----which has never worked in the last 40 years!

All the advances with the working class have come from Democratic legislation and ideas. Many of them are no longer needed and the bureaucrats still there pushing paper are no longer needed so it's time to clean up our act and save money flushing programs and people just pushing paper.

ET--the growing Welfare system needs immediate correction. If people have not left their poverty since the 70's, I see no hope for them. Didn't Jesus say, "The poor are always with us." Some people actuallly are quite well adapted to poverty and don't really care to work hard and sacrifice to make wiser economic decisions.

Between the excess expenses of having a military presence everywhere and paying people to sit on their porch, we could make large strides out of the economic mess we now have. Paying taxes is a priviledge----as long as we get benefits for the taxpayer out of it. Don't give me the bull about favoring the rich so we progress. Too many dollars have migrated to the few in a country formulated for "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." After a Million, what does it take to make a person happy?????

[KeithE]

[Gene Scarborough]

Most incisive and convincing: The average wage earner is SCEWED!!!

[Sandy]

Basic economics 101 used really simple phrases to put things like this in perspective. "More than a mouthful is a waste" characterizes the fact that having an economic subset of individuals known as "the super rich" is antithetical to economic prosperity. When there are "super rich," there is large scale debt and poverty.

It is also an economic principle that you pay for what you get. If your business is healthy and prosperous, it is so because of the labor you hired and the protections provided by the government. If you don't pay for those services in proportion to the profit you earn, you are "profiteering," getting something for nothing, and fobbing the cost off on to someone else. In this case, it's the middle class.

The fact that someone like E.T., who I would guess is a middle class working fellow like the rest of us, has bought into the idea that taxing the rich at appropriate levels is not sound economic policy is the direct result of the paid propaganda that has been poured out on us ever since Reagan took office. They've successfully diverted the attention of the ultra right wingers to spend energy and support on social issues which is just part of the plan. Most of these politicians must be laughing up their sleeves that these conservative middle class voters walking into voting booths and casting ballots to cut their wages, export their jobs to the third world, and strip themselves of their benefits, while they and their corporate backers stuff their bank accounts and redistribute America's wealth right into their own pockets. The whole goal is to trap the US middle class into being dependent for survival on the scraps that get thrown from the table, just like workers in Latin America and Asia.

[Jim]

[KeithE]

[ET]

[ET]

[Jim]

The abject stupidity connected to the Obama garbage is seen by his use of the term “shovel-ready jobs.” In the 1930s, there were shovel-ready jobs because people actually used shovels to do much if not most of the WPA/CCC work. Even at that, the average unemployment rate 1932-40 was over 19%, about what it actually is now. There are no shovel-ready jobs today and there weren’t when the marvelous stimulus plan went into place. The administration nitwits apparently don’t realize that one man and a machine can do in one hour what 1,000 men with shovels could do in a week in the 1930s. How many people does anyone actually see using shovels on a road project today? Dynamite and machines can cut through a mountain in a fraction of the time 100,000 guys with shovels would need. Private contractors unimpeded by foolish regulations competing with each other for projects of all kinds and using state-of-the-art equipment to determine their bids are the answer to unemployment, not government giveaways to favored contributors to campaigns over the table and whatever other method under the table. That’s economics 101, which means that Obama is not interested in success or a reduction in unemployment. He’s bringing change – socialism – Olde Europe in spades, just as Europe is going under and looking for the way of the far West until now – the U.S. Obama promised to bankrupt coal-fired generator folks in 2008 and make everyone’s electricity rates “skyrocket.” We’re seeing that now (although cap/trade foundered), along with the skyrocketing gasoline prices, brought about in large part because of the prohibition of drilling for natural gas now, more than oil. Along with a hopeless Congress, Obama tries hard to break the nation, his goal. Currently, he’s succeeding.

[Gene Scarborough]

Jim----

I beg to disagree with both you and ET. The "efficiency of machines" approach is null and void when you consider the cost of that machine and the fuel it burns. In many situations a man using his energy and working with a team of men can really acccomplish just a much.

I watch the roadsides being cut with machines. When they hit roadside trash it becomes a mess of mush and an eyesore. What is the problem with those receiving government assistance for sitting on their porches getting out and clearing those roadsides for 40 hours as week just like us citizens paying taxes to let them sit / deal in drugs / participate in crime / sire more children on welfare????

Were they working, they would be resting at night rather than roaming the streets and shooting one another / impregnating one another!!!!

There are a multitude of jobs machines simply can't do. There are others that---if you are paying them to sit---they migh as well be working like us. In Eastern NC we are importing Mexicans to harvest fields simply because so many able bodied men can collect a welfare check for just sitting. Machines can't harvest cucumbers / sweet potatoes / and many other crops. Get their lazy tails out there in the fresh air and sunshine earning their way intead of sitting they way to 300-400 masses of human flesh now wanting hip and joint replacements at Medicare / Medicaide expense.

Our President has the right ethnic link to step to the microphone and announce, "We are broke and can't afford to subsidize porch sitting anymore. Get your lazy selves out there in the fields and roadsides and earn your WIC subsidies every week just like us working folks who now support your laziness!!!!"

The alternative is starvation and that is a tough weight reduction program, but just might be necessary!

[KeithE]

[Gene Scarborough]

I never had a course in Economics, but am a little familiar with the writers and commentators mentioned. The problem I see with our Capitalistic Society is the obsession with money and greed to get it.

Would it not be more wise to take Jesus' Golden Rule as our mantra over "he who dies with the most toys wins?"

I see in the way of the Pharisee just another approach to making religion more about money than a spiritual relationship to God and a brotherly relationship to our neighbors----sadly, brothers and sisters fight too often over inheritance.

Money can't buy true happiness, but tell that to the media where most of the shows are about rich people. I think we are telling people more often that if you don't have money and position, you are not successful.

If I have raised children who know how to love and respect others, I think I have done my most important job!

[Jim]

[Gene Scarborough]

Jim---

You totally missed my points---sadly.

There are situations where large machines haul great loads and do large projects----but there are always men needed to do the fine work of blasting / engineering / final touches which a machine cannot do.

I have a $42K Bobcat with all wheel steer and the ability to lift 3-4K pound logs off yards without leaving more marks than a lawnmower! HOWER, that machine which can do the work of 10 men still needs an intelligent and dexterious man to run it and at least 2-3 men doing the final work behind it. It can't climb a tree and lower limbs or pop the top.

I see nothing demeaning in sweating and working at you skill level. I pay my men according to the level of intelligence and skill because I don't want someone else hiring them away from me. In the beginning I hired men from the homeless shelter, but found most of them content to sit and eat over working without complaint. Such men deserved to be helped with their basic needs, but they would have worked harder were it not for free meals and board at the shelter!

A safety net is good, but a safety goose down-bed / padded rocking chair just makes some people want to sleep / rock all day!

It may seem harsh, but I believe those who don't have enough gumption to work deserve to starve until their belly motivates them to get out of bed and work the 40 (or more) hour week required of me to pay my legitimate bills! After some 50 years of the "welfare state" it should begin to dawn on us that we have created a monster we can't afford!

If you question my theory---just look at the Amish who forgo fancy farm machinery, but still make a good living accompanied by a simple lifestyle! Quality and simplicity allow the majority of the world's populations to exist. If they would learn birth control in India and China, etc. their entire world could be greatly improved.

[Jim]

[Dave Roberts]

A big part of the economic problem rest in the fact that there are not shovel-ready jobs, and our educational system is not training people for the jobs that are out there. We allow kids, often because of parental pressure, to skate through the system. Those who are motivated come out of it prepared for the jobs that exist. Those who are not motivated, can't find work in the present economy. Unless you have computer skills, can type with fair accuracy, have a fair command of English, basic math skills, and an understanding of at least 9th ro 10th grade science classes, you will be hard pressed to get a job. Modern truck drivers deal with computer dispatch, gps position reporting software, in cab signals from weigh stations, and the responsibility of safeguarding those around them. It's no longer a semi-skilled position. I work in a 911 center in which you have to get along working with 8-radio channels, have CPR and AED certification, be certified for the state criminal information network, have been certified from basic dispatch school, work with 4 different computer systems, and try to accurately assess the needs of callers before fire, rescue, or law enforcement is dispatched. Even the telephone system is computerized. Law enforcement officers now deal with in-car computer terminals. Where I work is far from being atypical of what is expected in today's workplace environment.

We are content in my state to continue 180-day school years that can't begin until after Labor Day because of the need of amusement parks for summer workers through that weekend, spend most of the school year teaching students to pass state tests rather than teaching them life skills (all in the name of accountability), and scream at any idea that would toughen the curriculum or demand that students graduate with the qualifications to do something. In another state where I lived, the state mandated that no more than 10% of the students could fail any grade (even if 90% might deserve to do so). It was simply the economics of pushing them on through the system so the state did not pay for keeping them until they could function in society. I am intrigued by the fact that we think our American education is above average at the primary and secondary levels when it is sinking year by year. I believe we ranked 21st in the world in the preparation of our students in 2008. We are assuming that there will always be a safety net to catch these people. Mechanics need lots of varied skills to work on any modern car or truck.

In the area in which I live, there are still jobs in hotel housekeeping, fast food restaurants, and in the state's prison system that don't demand more than a high school education, but there are few of them. We have a good community college system in my state that offers lots of vocational training, but some of those who come from high school need remedial courses just to bring them up to the skills of reading blueprints, understanding schematic diagrams, and following complex sets of instructions necessary in the job market. Some of them are walking our streets in frustration because they have no skills for the 21st century job markets. Many of the Hispanics I see working in my area are not here for seasonal agricultural jobs any more. They are hanging drywall and setting roof trusses, both of which require some skills. We need to teach more of these skills to those who need a job. Give them support while they learn, and then help them succeed in the workplace. Don't just send down mandates from politicians that are supposed to get people off welfare and onto the employment rolls. Both parties seem bent on telling us they created jobs by their stimulus money. Remember, the first stimulus package was promoted by the Bush administration, the second by the Obama administration. Both thought they were creating a lot more jobs than ever reached the grassroots.

[Jim]

[ET]

[ET]

Dave, you've got some valid points. While much is made of our lack of education in the sciences and technology, it doesn't help when you've got goobs who think should be a requirement for graduation. A little "googling" reveals Oregon and Nebraska have got possible plans for adding such a topic that is almost surely to be more propaganda than anything of educational use.

This is the silliness that passes for "education" in this country. Another waste of classroom time.

[Dave Roberts]

I live in a community where many young men and young women do not have life skills. It's a tragedy of major proportions.

[KeithE]

[Gene Scarborough]

We are getting into a deep discussion over Economic Theory, when I think it is more important to consider the Ethics of what is going on today.

On paper EVERY theoretical approach to the economy has its pluses and minuses. In Czarist Russia the wealth was held by a few families. Now, in Elitest America the same is becoming more true per Reich's clear statistics. If you pick an ethic which states, "He who dies with the most toys wins" ---I fail to see much difference in Russia or America. Communism spouted equality of earnings and rank among the average citizen, but party officials became the same kind of Czars they had tried to eliminate. Now they are trying it our way with Capitalism. People have more "things" to make them happy, but is it any more than the "most toys" approach to Ethics?

This Country, like the Baptist Denomination, was formed out of weariness over how things were being run in England and Europe---in the case of religion, the control of the Church Leadership over the average worshiper. Slavery in the South and that of Imigrant jobs in the North were virtually the same: people sentenced to a low-class existence and earnings to do the dirty work for Plantation Owners / Magnates of Industry. Labor Unions improved the earnings of many workers, but was it a failure in its ethics of buying Legislators and invested in Organized Crime?

The wise Plantation Owner / Industry Magnate cared for the workers who produced the goods. Henry Ford's magic of the assembly line became such because he got out of his office, consulted with the workers, implemented their suggestions as to how it might be done better and more efficiently. Now the concept of robotics has replaced many people doing menial labor. The workers and owners of Industry are always happy to make more money and have a pleasant lifestyle, but IS THE HIGH COST OF TODAY'S AUTOMOBILE A SMART THING?

We are so spoiled to A/C, carpeted and leathered interiors, but the financial arrangements to buy an ever-more-expensive automobile has most people upside down in their equity = the owner owes more than the car is worth just to feel luxerious! We demand comfort at all times over riding a bicycle or public transportation to work. How demeaned is the person who even has to walk!

The crash into this Great Recession was based on lies about value and more than enough greed!!! "Winners" were basing their "success" on the ethics of greed and lying! Thus far, attempts of government to get us out have failed miserably because "everyone is in it for himself." When taxation forces people to pay a large portion of their paycheck to Government and Industry, an ethical approach to the disbursement of those funds should help the one who pays them in the first place!

So here is the real question: Why aren't all GM products 61% cheaper to the taxpayer who owned that much of them in year one, or 31% cheaper to us who still own that much of GM in year 4 going on 5 even though they are bragging about how much they have paid back to the Government?????

You can put the same type of question to Banking / Investment / Welfare / etc. Our quality of life is greatly deminished to the average citizen---and way too much of our public money is going to fund our military presence all over this earth--especially in Oil Lands of the Middle East.

Let's address the ethics of economics, if you please!