Prayer in Public Schools

[Gene Scarborough]

[KeithE]

Prayer was not banned in schools and how could it be. Just public prayer led by school authorities was banned due to the multiplicity of religious groups in the public classroom; it helps to curtail school authority figures (teachers, principals, coaches, ..) from promoting their version of God, religion, politics on their students. Private prayer (the kind Jesus advocated when He said "go to your closet...") cannot be legislated and I note that it didn't stop this author's son from praying under the table. As someone aptly said, 'as long as there are tests, there will be prayer in public schools'.

The authors' belief that banning public prayer in school led to Columbine (read his poem) is a misplaced, emotional appeal. "Simple prayer" was not banned and is not banned.

No the ban on public prayer led by school authorities, did not cause Columbine any more than the NRA did. My view is that violent videos games /movies, pressing materialism, and bullying have a lot more to do with violence in schools than either the NRA or the ban of public prayer. If you seek solutions via legislation I would recommend starting there. Revoking the school prayer ban placed on school authorities won't do squat except start a lot of lawsuits.

Now in face of all the issues the world faces, ensuring that no public prayer ever happens at a public school ranks low on my totem pole of concerns - no need to add prayer police. And if it occassionally happens, let it ride. But if a teacher is defiant, let him/her go.

[Neil Heath]

Well said, Keith.

[Tim Bonney]

Keith said it all!

[Gene Scarborough]

Thanks for the great responses thus far!!!

I see nothing so far I would debate. My Momma was a 5th Grade teacher when the "new rules" went in. Since she never forced any student to participate in a "Christian Bible reading," she did not see any problem with continuing to have a student read a Scripture passage before they did the Pledge to the American flag.

Don't mess with a SC farmer's daughter who is a committed Christiam who happens to be Baptist!!!! She certianly knew what "being fee" meant.

[Blake]

I agree with Keith, but want to add a thought provoking quote I once heard: "Is adult entertainment killing our children or is killing our children entertaining adults?"

[David Flick]

[Tim Bonney]

[Blake]

It has to do with Keith's suggestion that violent video games/movies, materialism and bullying are more to blame for Columbine than lack of prayer in schools.

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

I think we are all seeing the results of un-controlled giving-in-to the lower nature of children and teens.

When bloody movies and wrestling as well a video games makes them think that is reality, it is bad. My 4 grandsons--ages 7-13--are surrounded with their own rooms / their each one owned PSP's / cell phones / wrestling that they come out of those rooms ready to rumble. The oldest one grabbed his middle brother around the throat the other day and was giving him a wrestler choke----he had no concept that he could break his brother's neck and have a para-palegic brother for the rest of his life = totally dangerous!!!

When I took my son for our first hunt with a real gun in his hand, I took a milk jug full of water and sat it on a stump. We stepped back some 15' and I blasted it with my .20 gage loaded with birdshot. I then told him if that were a fellow hunter's head, it would be blood and brains spattering everywhere! Never point a gun---no matter what---at anything you don't intend to kill or mutilate!!!! He got the message from his wiser father and has taught the same to his son.

When people splatter in video games, you push the restart botton and they are whole again. When the Columbine crazies pointed their guns the blood and brains were real and many people died. Children cannot separate fact from fantasy. I'm not sure many politicians do either!

Bullying is a growing problem in our public schools. Parents remain too remote and put their duties onto teachers. It takes a village to raise a child----we just don't seem to have many villages anymore--especially in urban areas! Here in Bath which is quite small, it is a different world for children and I see the value more clearly than most!

[Blake]

I wonder if any of you have heard anything about Columbine since '99. is a ten year reflection on what has come to be known since. It's not as simple as video games, movies, gun laws or parenting. Has anyone wondered why the reasons given for the violence of serial killers often goes immediately to their mental conditions, but when a kid does it the kid is absolved of responsibility as everyone tries to pin it on the entertainment industry, guns or parents? It's like people don't really believe the world is fallen or that original sin exists for everyone.

[Jim]

[Sandy]

Aside from the cliche about socialism being the watchword in Washington, I would tend to agree with most of what Jim says. Schools are over-regulated for a number of reasons. Because they do not naturally generate an income, in the way a business would do, their financial situation is dependent on their "performance," which is based largely on test scores. Because of the strict application of "separation of church and state," the curriculum objectives that are mandated for them to teach do not take a posture of religious "neutrality," because that is impossible. They naturally become anti-Christian. School officials are unable to remove the distractions which interfere with the ability to deliver a quality education because they fear being sued, and the students, who are not taught resepct for authority at home, do not learn it at school, either.

Add to that the complications that arise when you jam thousands of students into a high school environment where the very size of the school itself creates social problems and defeats the ability to offer a quality education and you have chaos.

The church doesn't need a captive audience to teach students in schools about prayer. It should be teaching its own young people, and those whom it reaches, the powerful result of prayer, so that they can apply it in their lives, when they are at school or on the job, because it does make a difference.

[KeithE]

[Gene Scarborough]

What I was thinking when I wrote the quote is: "All eyes of every parent and teacher are needed to spot bullies / sneaky crime-prone youngsters / anything which brings about disrespect and a less-than-the-best outlook for all concerned."

I had a recent discussion with some gentlemen down here in this more rural area. They were talking of how bussing is destroying a community outlook. When kids go to school in the community were they live it is a far better environment and a sense of community spirit develops. Even kids in deprived areas can overcome their deprivation!

Before the days of integrated schools in NC, my wife worked as a teacher's aide in an all black school in Wake Forest. She was scared at first, but soon adapted and found it a wonderful learning environment. The teachers told their students that hygiene was essential and they would not tolerate a child with hair full of lint nor a body odor. This teacher would provide any child who needed it with a toothbrush / soap bar / washcloth so that they might come to school clean. It was simply expected of a school named after the great Educator, Dr. W.E.B. DuBois!

I can't imagine a white teacher saying such to any black students. They had a sense of pride and graduated some of the most gifted students. All who were capable of college got directions and financial assistance to get there. Now that the school is integrated and large in Wake County there are Deputies in the hallways / metal detectors / drug sniffing dogs checking out lockers. Believe you me, such was not required at the old DuBois school! Any of their teachers or Principal would take care of business---if the best was not given in attitudes and demeanor any given day.

Large does not equal "success." All the computers and science labs with fancy equipment will not replace good caring adults surrounding those children with a safe environment. Those students began their day with Bible readings and prayer and my wife learned about "Hello operator, get me Jesus on the line!" She was blessed, as were they, because people loved and cared in a learning environment. One child came to school early in the term and threw up potatoe peels because that was the only thing the child had to eat. Immediately, the teacher and the cafeteria made sure it didn't happen again.

Now that is school with a heart and brain expecting the best out of students. It is something we are sadly missing these days with fancy classrooms and teachers just "getting through the day" making sure NOT to offend anyone!!!

[Tim Bonney]

It is simple. Christians can't do the work of leading people to Christ by trying to get the government to do our work for us. We need to teach people to pray who will teach their children to pray. It isn't lack of prayer in schools that is a problem. It is lack of prayer in homes.

[Gene Scarborough]