Osama bin Laden

[Gene Scarborough]

Timothy--

So do you believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted along in the assasination of JFK???

It has been since 1963 November---and that one speaks to me of conspiracy. I saw it in the months after as things just didn't add up. It continued with the Warren Report / Oliver Stone's JFK as the Zappruder film clearly showed his right front head blown apart from front to back as frame-by-frame it is shown.

You have to separate clearly "wild" speculation from "reasoned," but I had little trouble doing such. When the Statute of Limitations expires in a few more years the public will FINALLY have access to far more materials of original nature.

So where do you land on this one, buddy???

[KeithE]

[Tim Bonney]

Keith,

Another sign of "true believers" in conspiracy theories is that the theoriest can't take "no" for an answer when they want you to argue with them about their theory and you don't want to argue.

Keith I've read the material on both sides of the argument and I've not come to your conclusion. Sorry, but that is the short form of a long argument between me and you that would end with the same conclusion. So I'm taking the short-cut to the conclusion which is that I agree with the official view of how the towers collapsed and disagree with your view.

So we've now saved several pages of arguing back and forth. And I realize that me dumping you in with Camping may sound mean. But you need to realize that most Americans would lump in the "truther" theory with Camping, the flat earth society, Area 51, and the birthers. I'm sorry. But that is how most of us feel.

[Tim Bonney]

[KeithE]

[KeithE]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[KeithE]

[Dave Roberts]

I for one take the official explanation of the JFK assassination as the only plausible one. Kennedy was shot by Oswald. OK, so there are some gaps in the handling of the investigation, and the Dallas PD did a terrible job of protecting their prisoner allowing the movement of Oswald to be a media circus with no security for Oswald at all. Jack Ruby shot him unblocked and unimpeded. I have read the Warren Commission Report, seen several different interpretations of the Zappruder film, and remember living through the horrible weekend of its occurrence. ( I was a high school senior at the time, and the experiences of Kennedy's assassination, of the assassinations of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr, and of the attempted assassination of George Wallace powerfully shaped many of my current perspectives. It was a terrible moment to come to adulthood.) There will always be unanswered questions, but over 47 years have passed since JFK died, and we have not yet learned all the lessons of that moment. May God help us not to get lost in minutae to the point that we never see the broader perspectives of events.

[Gene Scarborough]

Major turns in world events which change history seldom are as simple as the first glance indicates. They don't "just happen" for a major historical change / power change / redirection of policy to take place.

Let's go back to Jesus and the Pharisees. There was a plot hatched to get rid of the Rabbi who was stirring up the people. The Pharisees wanted to appear innocent and pushed the Roman occupiers into the spotlight so they kept their Jewish halos. At the core was a plan to keep them in power and eliminate the challenge which was rooting itself as doubt in the minds of the average Jew who trusted Temple interpretations on most matters. The smoke and mirrors blinded them!

Follow the money to the sinking of the Maine / Pearl Harbor / Gulf of Tonkin / Dallas / Memphis / etc. Who profited in power and/or money in the event? Man's natural defense mechanism has Rationalization as a main feature = we want a "reason which does not trouble us" to give us comfort in times of trouble.

How many prefer comfort over truth---no matter what is costs in blind trust / tax money spent / soldiers and followers killed??

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

I know the both of you were insulted by the comparison to Harld Camping. But how does a guy come up with the idea that the world will end on a certain day when the scripture tells everyone else otherwise? Well you have to create a logical construct which supports your view which you refuse to think outside of. So all evidence contrary to your construct is dismissed. Once you are inside that construct you just can't see anything else. That is what conspiracy theories turn into for true believers.

If someone presents you with contrary evidence you find grounds to dismiss it, you inpune the source (such as Gene saying that people who don't buy these theories are just wanting to be comfortable. Rather than deal with the reality that most conspiracy theories aren't true by there very nature.).

In the extreme you do what Camping has now done twice. You predict and when your predictions turn out to be false you don't abandon the construct, you simply claim that you were just off by a bit (rather than totally on the wrong track) and move on.

Camping is still predicting the end of the world on October 21 because he can't give up his Rapture construct. Forget that no one had heard of the idea of a "rapture" before the 1830s. Forget that he's been wrong twice. Forget that nearly every Biblical scholar left right and middle disagree with him. He's been sucked into the belief in the prophecy construct he's created. So now not only can he not see the forest for the trees. He denies the trees even exist.

[KeithE]

[Tim Bonney]

Well Keith, I'd have been interested in discussing the psychology of conspiracy if others had wanted to talk about it. But no, I'm not going to get pulled into an argument about the "truther" fantasy no matter how much you goad me. And that gets me back to my original point. No one really wants to engage you on this subject for reasons you might want to think about. And it isn't that everyone but you and the "truthers" are into denying evidence and facts.

[Jim]

From the UN Security Council of 17 March:

SECURITY COUNCIL APPROVES ‘NO-FLY ZONE’ OVER LIBYA, AUTHORIZING ‘ALL NECESSARY MEASURES’ TO PROTECT CIVILIANS, BY VOTE OF 10 IN FAVOUR WITH 5 ABSTENTIONS

Demanding an immediate ceasefire in Libya, including an end to the current attacks against civilians, which it said might constitute “crimes against humanity”, the Security Council this evening imposed a ban on all flights in the country’s airspace — a no-fly zone — and tightened sanctions on the Qadhafi regime and its supporters.

Adopting resolution 1973 (2011) by a vote of 10 in favour to none against, with 5 abstentions (Brazil, China, Germany, India, Russian Federation), the Council authorized Member States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to take all necessary measures to protect civilians under threat of attack in the country, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory — requesting them to immediately inform the Secretary-General of such measures.

What began as the establishment of a no-fly-zone (described by Defense Secretary Gates as an “on the fly” operation, translated unstructured) has become an all-out war, with the heaviest NATO bombing to date on this Tuesday, a total of 2,500 air-strikes in the last two months. As far as is known, there is no exit plan, just continued bombing.

From the New York Times, May 22: “Samantha Power, a human rights crusader, is a member of the National Security Council, which advises President Obama on foreign policy. For nearly 20 years, since her days as a young war correspondent in Bosnia, Ms. Power has championed the idea that nations have a moral obligation to prevent genocide. From her perch on the council, she is in a position to make that case to the commander in chief — and to watch him translate her ideas into action.” Perhaps such as Libya? Disgusting!

It may be that the president fancies himself as a “humanitarian interventionist,” someone who takes a look at various parts of the world and decides that he’d better fix them, even if killing a bunch of innocent people is in the mix. His glorification of the current “Arab Spring” and consequent urging of young, inexperienced, unprepared Middle Easterners to take to the streets, a la community organizing mode, and turn themselves into cannon fodder in the process is disingenuous at best and criminal at worst

[Gene Scarborough]

This is ranging far and wide! That's OK because it is all most important as we mess with the world without expecting them to mess back with us.

I think we are getting what we deserve in a way. It is a repeat of the ancient atrocities of the Jews invading their Promised Land and viewing it as a "command from God" to bash the heads of babies / kill and rape the women / bring all the treasure to the Priests. What a distortion of God's commands!!! The current debate over Israel returning to the 1967 territories is a continuation of the whole Promised Land thing. History does, indeed, repeat itself and those who fail to study the events and consequences are doom to repeat them into Eternity--where someone presses the "red button" to send us all back to our caves and a polluted nuclear earth.

Whenever we put our wants and selfish desires as a "command from YHWH," it should be suspect, at the least!

I thank Keith for pointing out further things about the WTC collapses. The are, at the least, worth consideration, in my view. I am totally convinced a conspiracy was up simply with the non-intercept of 4 clearly hijacked commercial jets. Further, the Pentagon folks who were scheduled to fly that day---ALL canceled their trips.

For Timothy, who takes a position that "JFK happened before my time"--I view as an excuse not to look more deeply as a world-changing event with deep consequences for people of his generation. They carried draft cards and went to die and be maimed in Viet Nam. I have such classmates condemned to a life with a prostetic limb or eye or PTSD. Many of them are the homeless of today with the VA claiming there is no direct proof that Agent Orange caused their cancers and other dread diseases.

A man/woman who blindly accepts that the "government always tells the truth" has not noticed the Statute of Limitations on the right of a free press and free society to look for themselves at events "over-classified" as "National Security." It is a flimsy excuse not to be caught in a bald-faced lie until the principals are all dead and gone--and can't be prosecuted.

[KeithE]

[KeithE]

[KeithE]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: I am with Tim on this. 911 conspiracy theories are full of holes. But if 51% on Americans want a new investigation let them raise the money to pay for it.

[Blake]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---the price of just a few tomahawk missles would easily pay for a new investigation. We are spending gazillions occupying the Middle East / strangely our bases are all located on a proposed Oil Pipeline mapped out many years ago / and you don't care to see what started it all as Mr. Bush sat in a classroom with that blase look on his face??? Shame!!!

I'll gladly give a psychology perspective as I have the degree. Have to come back later for it.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

The psychology of the conspiracy-directed person starts with a sense of insecurity. The person "wants to know" what the exact reality is.

This "knowing" is akin to a Gnostic kind of approach to religion where "special knowledge" is the ticket to a right relationship to God. For this reason many seriously religious people are prone to examining events to find the truth / whole truth / nothing but the truth. They have a problem having the "joy of salvation" without a dozen scripture verses to convince them they don't need to be insecure. Those verses are no substitute for real trust and faith which are feelings---and not a mental rationale.

Government, on the other hand, is prone to keeping their image of "we are in charge and you have to trust us." The same is true of any CEO's and other major users of money and earners of money. Somehow they feel they are superior because they make more--and you, as an underling, are just going to have to do exactly what they tell you and believe what you are told. The more they demand without participating in the daily work, the more you mistrust them.

When underlings have a mind of their own and a perception of a better way to do what they are doing, it leads to grumbling and mistrust among the employees. An example is the large Phosphate Mine across the River from me. I ride the Ferry at times with the morning shift men. They are always discussing the stupid stuff that is interfering with production. They don't like the white shirts in the office who never walk among them and make stupid practical decisions. The most discussed matter is a man who got killed several months ago when a flexible piece of large tubing jumped out of the machine holding it and it snapped into him standing too close. Now they have all kinds of safety meetings and discussions which really contribute nothing to safety and production. For them the matter is simple: he should have been thinking of his own safety / standing at a reasonable safe distance / having an escape route in mind and using it! It is dangerous work, but management cares more about profit and avoiding a death lawsuit than encouraging the men to simply be careful and thoughtful as they go through a dangerous day. The men perceive them as "remote" and "uncaring."

With 9/11, many of us citizens feel it is an excuse for War and could have been prevented by use of standing procedures practiced often by the USAF. The Terrorists were already at the attention of authorities, but they did not wisely commmnicate between agencies and now are trying to cover up their lack of due dilligence. When we are feeling used and that the truth is not being told, we become suspicious. Those who have had the same as chidren when parents mis-treated them and lied to them have an earned sense of mistrust. It raises the internal sense of mistrust.

A child learns basic trust / mistrust within the first 5 years of life. When they cry it is usually for a reason. A parent who does not care they are hungry or their diaper is dirty, makes them cry harder with no result. Too many parents want to finish what they are doing before responding to the crying baby. Or they are so into themselves that they have no perception of what is really wrong with a child who can't do anything other than cry. It all boils down to non-verbal communication! The word "empathy" covers the matter of "getting into" the needs of the child to figure it out.

Too many want to "farm out" caring to the preschool teachers / baby sitter / other parent / anything but themselves. Caring can't be bought. It is paid for by personal sacrifice and love on the part of a caring parent. People who are selfish are poor candidates for marriage, much less children who come from the union. The sick produce another generation of sick and fearful humans. News focusing on tragedy and mahem gives you another reason to be fearful when you are not personally threatened or in harm's way. Before you know it, everyone is carrying a gun and shootings happen.

And ED--- Please don't wast your time with anything I say because you took your "sourpuss /know-it-all pill" at supper!