American Concentration Camps

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American Concentration Camps

Postby Sandy » Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:36 pm

We have a tendency as Americans to take the liberty that we wake up to every day and the prosperity and relative safety that we live in for granted. Our eyes tend to move past unpleasant things that we are not personally experiencing. The attention of the American people needs to be drawn to what is happening to the people, mostly impoverished Central Americans desperately trying to stay alive and keep their children safe, who are being detained along our border. People locked up in cages, separated from their children, sleeping on floors in some cases without blankets. What's going on there is absolutely inexcusable. Don't even argue back that they are "lawbreakers" because they have tried to cross the border illegally, that is just a demonstration of a calloused, uncaring attitude blinded by prejudice and hatred.

There have been some groups of Christians who have tried to help by taking supplies and attempting to help parents locate kids, mostly Catholic relief services, but they have been turned away. Turned away.

This particular migration to the United States is our fault. We're the market for the drugs that the cartels are terrorizing and turning countries into lawless anarchies for. But our billionaires are worth more than the impoverished Central Americans so we cut what aid they were getting to help fight the problem so the billionaires can have a tax cut. Trump is too busy entertaining his communist friend in North Korea to pay attention.

I don't see much about what is going on at the border from my evangelical friends on social media. They're either blind to it because they aren't paying attention, or they have isolated themselves from it by watching fake news that doesn't report the truth, or they don't really care and they think these people are getting what they deserve. Why isn't Franklin Graham boiling with indignation over this? Doesn't he fly planeloads of dollar store junk all over the world, including to Central America so that kids can have a gift and get the gospel message at Christmas, or is that just a fundraising ploy? Where's the megachurch pastors who are always scamming for photo ops?

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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby William Thornton » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:04 am

Dem talking points...an insult to millions of Jews.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Sandy » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:16 am

An insult to Jews? Read a little William, and enlighten yourself. The isolationists kept the Jews out of the United States as best they could prior to and after the war, because no one really believed what was actually going on and because they claimed the Nazis would use the stream of refugees as a means of putting "spies and saboteurs" into the country. Once the war started, and the Holocaust got going, we wouldn't even help empty the reachable neutral countries in Europe, Spain, Portugal and Sweden, by taking the load off of them and allow Jews that were crowded into their countries to come to the US so that those who could still make their way out of Nazi-held Europe would be welcomed there.

If the Jews were in charge of the administration, they'd welcome the refugees and asylum seekers with open arms.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:28 am

Whatever you call the camps, the treatment of the migrants in them is inhuman. And the discovered mean and rude behavior of some of the guards in them posts to a failed system.

The US carries some responsibility for the conditions in Central America having spent years propping up banana republics and their dictators. If we really wanted to to this migration we would work with Central American nations on their economies and security so that people didn't feel compelled to leave their homes.

These people aren't criminals. They are terrified poor people who have no hope and no where to turn to. A governments lack of concern and compassion for these people make a lie out of ideals of justice and freedom.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Sandy » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:45 am

https://sbcvoices.com/do-we-see-the-mig ... -helpless/

There are, thankfully, some Christians and even a few Southern Baptists who don't consider the issue "Dem talking points" and exhibit at least some understanding of what is happening.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby William Thornton » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:27 am

The author of the voices piece has better sense than to make a equivalency with Dachau and Auschwitz. You guys apparently don't.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:40 am

I think what is going on at the border is horrible. But, looking up the basic definition of concentration camps, I'm not sure using that word helps. It just gives the GOP a talking point and is offending some of our Jewish friends.

We can talk about the inhuman conditions with other terminology with out proving Godwins Law. I have to believe there are Republicans too that don't want to see chidden neglected and mistreated.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Sandy » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:48 am

https://www.newsweek.com/holocaust-geno ... mp-1446911

Dachau and Auschwitz are extreme examples and not the only kind of places that fit the definition of "concentration camp". Apparently there are plenty of experts in the field who note that the term has a broader definition, many of them Jewish. With all due respect, the concentration camps of the Nazi era were as low as humanity has ever gotten, but Jews weren't the only victims and the Nazis aren't the only ones who ran concentration camps for the purpose of putting people to death. The Soviets were good at it and kept most of their post-ww2 horrors secret. The North Koreans did as well. Any place where people are unjustly held against their will and treated inhumanely is subject to legitimate criticism. I'm glad to see so many experts in the field, including many Jewish experts, agree.

Timothy Bonney wrote:I have to believe there are Republicans too that don't want to see children neglected and mistreated.


There are some, of course. They did managed to get an appropriation bill through the house and senate to help alleviate some of the problems, though I'm wondering why it is that the Department of Homeland Security was caught short of the cash to take care of this. This becomes a political issue because the right wing extremist press automatically starts defending everything Trump does. They see everything through a political lens and start their attempts to get ahead of an issue to create an alternative story in order to rationalize his actions. So sympathy for the refugees and a desire to see better handling of the situation at the border is considered an attack on Trump. Well, they can go ahead and draw the political lines around everything and see how that works out for them.

People are unnecessarily dying from mistreatment, locked up against their will because of who they are ethnically, children and families separated, people in our prisons and jails who committed real crimes are treated better. These detention centers were not build to accommodate large numbers of people for an extended time, they were built to house people for a couple of days while their request for asylum was processed and their background was vetted. What's happening now is that this mess has been created as an attempt to deter immigrants from coming, words Trump himself has said repeatedly. See how well that's worked.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby William Thornton » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:12 am

Timothy has good sense on this.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:32 am

This morning, there were interviews on NPR with former CBP employees who admitted that the mistreatment was crafted to deter people from coming. Asylum is a right recognized by the Geneva Convention. Not every asylum request has to be granted, but to apply is a right guaranteed under the Geneva Convention signed at the end of World War II which we helped to craft. To say that people applying for asylum are "illegals" is the direct violation of International Law that we helped to create. Are our politicians actually this ignorant?
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:43 am

William Thornton wrote:Timothy has good sense on this.


I try to be reasonable occasionally.

Using the term "concentration" camp actually distracts us from the real problem.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Joseph Patrick » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:10 am

William Thornton wrote:The author of the voices piece has better sense than to make a equivalency with Dachau and Auschwitz. You guys apparently don't.

From Gerry Milligan...William, always quick with a rock...here is what Webster says: "a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities."
So, as "concentration camps" cause you some problems, how would you describe what is happening on our Southern Border?
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Sandy » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:36 pm

William Thornton wrote:The author of the voices piece has better sense than to make a equivalency with Dachau and Auschwitz. You guys apparently don't.


No "equivalency" either to Dachau or Auschwitz was made, nor was a comparison made to any other system of concentration camp. The term, as it is defined, was used appropriately in accordance with its definition. I suspect William's objection of it and his initial response to it as "Dem talking points" was in reaction to its use by Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez, who he clearly dislikes.

We've had larger groups of immigrants come to the United States in the past asking for asylum. It has posed problems, the Mariel Boatlift is a good example. Temporary housing quarters were set up for the hundreds who came ashore mostly in Florida but there was no separation of children, relief services were sought and encouraged to provide assistance. There was a lot of overcrowding in the detention facilities but the government started immediately on finding alternative locations including the sports facilities and convention facilities around the area. The vetting process was complicated by the fact that Castro emptied his prisons and mental institutions, though being a prisoner in Cuba under Castro didn't necessarily mean you were a criminal. Following the fall of Saigon, most Vietnamese were able to emigrate to the US from the countries where they sought asylum as refugees. What's happening now is unprecedented.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby William Thornton » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:27 pm

Hmmm... sure.

If "concentration camp" is used you can bet it's on purpose. Insanity.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Haruo » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:15 pm

William Thornton wrote:Hmmm... sure.

If "concentration camp" is used you can bet it's on purpose. Insanity.

Yeah, it's like accusing god-fearing Americans of being cosmonauts! ;)

The United States has often had concentration camps, for indigenous people, for people of Japanese ancestry... Only a desire to whitewash our history, and force of habit, keeps us from calling them that.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby William Thornton » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:22 pm

Haruo wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Hmmm... sure.

If "concentration camp" is used you can bet it's on purpose. Insanity.

Yeah, it's like accusing god-fearing Americans of being cosmonauts! ;)

The United States has often had concentration camps, for indigenous people, for people of Japanese ancestry... Only a desire to whitewash our history, and force of habit, keeps us from calling them that.


No. Not for the purpose of extermination. The comparison is absurd. The word is meant to raise the specter of Nazi camps. Insanity.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Haruo » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:25 pm

True, not for the purpose of extermination. But for concentration, absolutely.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Sandy » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:43 pm

Haruo wrote: The United States has often had concentration camps, for indigenous people, for people of Japanese ancestry... Only a desire to whitewash our history, and force of habit, keeps us from calling them that.


The definition of the term is not exclusively applied to the Nazi camps. In this particular thread, no reference or comparison was made to the Nazis until William jumped to that conclusion himself. You can google it or look it up however you'd like, the historical definition of the term refers to places where people of a specific minority or religious group, or who are refugees are detained against their will for political rather than criminal reasons.

The camps for Japanese during World War II were originally referred to as concentration camps until the reality of what was happening in Europe dawned on Americans and the history books changed to the term "internment camps." No question that what was done was unconscionable, that conditions were terrible at best and that people who were American citizens by birth were denied their rights because they looked like Japanese. The detention centers along the border, built to house people for no more than a couple of days while their identity is vetted and they can be moved somewhere else as a legal refugee, are clearly housing people for far longer periods of time. From the words of Trump's own mouth for the purpose of deterring others from coming. There's no accusation being made, he's making these claims himself.

Trump has aligned himself more closely with Vladimir Putin than any other world leader. I don't know that Putin himself has any personal experience with concentration camps but he's a Communist and his party most certainly has. So has Trump's other pal and confidant, Kim Jung Un. That takes the steam out of complaints about using the term and making comparisons. He's creating this impression all by himself. He's even planning a North Korean/Soviet style display of armed might at the DC fourth of July this year.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Haruo » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:41 pm

Sandy wrote:
Haruo wrote: The United States has often had concentration camps, for indigenous people, for people of Japanese ancestry... Only a desire to whitewash our history, and force of habit, keeps us from calling them that.


The definition of the term is not exclusively applied to the Nazi camps. In this particular thread, no reference or comparison was made to the Nazis until William jumped to that conclusion himself. You can google it or look it up however you'd like, the historical definition of the term refers to places where people of a specific minority or religious group, or who are refugees are detained against their will for political rather than criminal reasons.

The camps for Japanese during World War II were originally referred to as concentration camps until the reality of what was happening in Europe dawned on Americans and the history books changed to the term "internment camps." No question that what was done was unconscionable, that conditions were terrible at best and that people who were American citizens by birth were denied their rights because they looked like Japanese. The detention centers along the border, built to house people for no more than a couple of days while their identity is vetted and they can be moved somewhere else as a legal refugee, are clearly housing people for far longer periods of time. From the words of Trump's own mouth for the purpose of deterring others from coming. There's no accusation being made, he's making these claims himself.

Trump has aligned himself more closely with Vladimir Putin than any other world leader. I don't know that Putin himself has any personal experience with concentration camps but he's a Communist and his party most certainly has. So has Trump's other pal and confidant, Kim Jung Un. That takes the steam out of complaints about using the term and making comparisons. He's creating this impression all by himself. He's even planning a North Korean/Soviet style display of armed might at the DC fourth of July this year.

I don't think there's any reason to think that Putin is a Communist. He was certainly a nominal Communist in his earlier years, when the KGB expected such of its officers, but that's anachronistic about the same way that assuming a Southern Baptist today is the same critter it was when the Berlin wall came down. Russia and the SBC underwent a sea change in roughly the same era.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:15 am

William Thornton wrote:No. Not for the purpose of extermination. The comparison is absurd. The word is meant to raise the specter of Nazi camps. Insanity.


Obviously, William, you have never read the Cherokee version of the Trail of Tears. Death in the camps was common, and half of those who started the forced march west to Oklahoma died on the way, most from the lack of water, food, or rest. Don't assume we have never been in the extermination business. President Jackson certainly was, and he was also in the land theft business where NC, TN, and GA had previously recognized Cherokee ownership of lands and houses. Our government did not provide for those whom they forced to move. If that was not a camp for extermination, Hitler didn't have any either.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby William Thornton » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:15 am

This is bat guano crazy. Some trumphater calls ins facilities "concentration camps". That is meant to convey nazi death camp imagery. It's a stupid strategic move. I can't believe you guys rationalize it. Absurd. Get a life.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Sandy » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:58 am

What is "bat guano crazy", "absurd," and punctuated by "get a life" is the entire Trump charade including his Fox propaganda network and the absolute insanity of believing any of that crap. Outrage should be directed at the fact that here, in the 21st century, an American president's bigotry and hatred of latinos has permitted something to happen on American soil that should never have happened here, especially after all of the lessons we have learned and seen. If you're more outraged over a comparison of the orange headed windbag to the Nazis than you are over the way refugees are being treated at the border then that's "bat guano crazy" and not just absurd. It's insane.
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:46 am

Do you see what is happening? You all are spending all his time arguing about what to call the camps. Its a big mistake to focus on that and not the plight of the children. Call it whatever the heck you want, but get those kinds better facilities, food and care!
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby William Thornton » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:56 pm

Sandy wrote:What is "bat guano crazy", "absurd," and punctuated by "get a life" is the entire Trump charade including his Fox propaganda network and the absolute insanity of believing any of that crap. Outrage should be directed at the fact that here, in the 21st century, an American president's bigotry and hatred of latinos has permitted something to happen on American soil that should never have happened here, especially after all of the lessons we have learned and seen. If you're more outraged over a comparison of the orange headed windbag to the Nazis than you are over the way refugees are being treated at the border then that's "bat guano crazy" and not just absurd. It's insane.


Defending the use of nazi terminology is bat guano crazy.

...and then complain when called on it that it's a distraction from the real issue. Whose fault is that?
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Re: American Concentration Camps

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:31 pm

William Thornton wrote:

...and then complain when called on it that it's a distraction from the real issue. Whose fault is that?


Darned if I don't at least partially agree with William. Don't use the term "concentration camp" if you don't want the terminology to become a distraction.
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