Fetal manslaughter by proxy

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Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby Haruo » Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:49 am

Apparently there is a case in Alabama where a pregnant woman started an argument with another woman in a parking lot. The argument escalated, the other woman pulled a gun and shot the first one, not killing her, but killing the unborn child. A grand jury has now decided not to indict the woman who killed the fetus, but to indict the wounded and bereaved woman who started the argument for manslaughter. This has my brain doing weird stuff trying to wrap itself around the jury's reasoning. Does it make more sense somehow (and if so, how?) to those of you nearer ground zero, Keith, Neil, William, Stephen? I was on my way via Google News to try to get a handle on it, when I was waylaid by my desire to investigate Fox's (at that point as far as I could see non-existent) coverage of the Trump Birther Kamala Birther Tweet imbroglio. That's another thread.
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Re: Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby Rvaughn » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:03 am

I had not heard about this, but just searched for some news on it and found this:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48789836
Two things. It sounds as if a lot of racket is being made about this in connection with the new abortion law passed in Alabama, but
...the county district attorney's office stated on Friday that the new abortion law played no role in the case.

"This case predates the passage of the legislation and we must point out the new law played no role in the consideration of the Grand Jury," the statement said.
I looked this up and this is correct. The incident happened in December 2018, and the new law was not passed until May 2019.
According to the above linked article, dated Friday, they have not decided whether to indict the mother of the baby who was killed.
The Jefferson County Bessemer District Attorney's office issued a statement saying ..."Our office is in the process of evaluating this case and has not yet made a determination about whether to prosecute it as a manslaughter case, reduce it to a lesser charge or not to prosecute it."
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Re: Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:09 am

I don't get it. I find it confusing as well Haruo.
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Re: Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby KeithE » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:28 am

It is good to have John Archibald back and writing news commentary for Alabama - he had taken a leave of absent.

Here is his take on this matter: Marshae Jones indictment is complex; Alabama hypocrisy isn’t.

He, like the new district attorney in that Western Birmingham suburb area, have not decided on what charges should be filed against Marshee Jones or Ebony Jemison. Should it be 3rd degree murder, manslaughter? or assault? or treat as an accident? I'd be for declaring it an accident if it appears the young women involved have learned their lessons (but I have not heard /seen anything about their attitudes). I always believe in being redemptive. Our prisons in AL and most other states are not very rehabilitative.

----------------

But John goes on to point out the hypocrisy of Alabama lawmakers/governors who have (by their grandstanding in refusing Medicaid funding), caused far more infants to die. Few are even thinking about challenging these lawmakers (thanks John), let alone charge them.

Look at the correlation between states with high infant mortality rates and states that have refused Medicaid expansion:
State Infant Mortality Rates
States that Refused Medicaid Exoansion
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Re: Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby Haruo » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:26 pm

Thanks, Keith. That does put it in a lot better perspective, and knowing the dates involved is also very helpful, Robert. The "punishment for unintended consequences of one's actions" bit is priceless. I'm interested in knowing why my radio station here in Seattle just out of the blue decided to pull this case up a few days ago and harping on it for days. Was the trigger the prosecutor's office statement, or what? I'm sure I'll never know.
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Re: Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:32 pm

I still have my struggles with not indicting the woman who fired the gun.
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Re: Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:38 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:I still have my struggles with not indicting the woman who fired the gun.


Yes, that really bothers me. But then we love guns more than people in the USA.
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Re: Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby Sandy » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:14 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:I still have my struggles with not indicting the woman who fired the gun.


I've been looking at this since it was posted here, checking the news sources about it to see if there were any more insights. If you look at the way the priorities seem to be arranged here, owning a gun and using it seems to trump any criminal charges associated with using it. She took the life of an unborn child in the process, but apparently, in the moral order of Alabama, guns rank ahead of the lives of the unborn. I'm gathering from the names of the two women that they were African American, and I'm thinking about how much different the situation would be if the woman whose unborn child was killed was white.
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Re: Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:32 pm

Sandy wrote:and I'm thinking about how much different the situation would be if the woman whose unborn child was killed was white.


I wondered that myself.
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Re: Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby Haruo » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:36 pm

Surely grand juries—especially in Alabama—are colorblind.
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Re: Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:39 pm

Haruo wrote:Surely grand juries—especially in Alabama—are colorblind.


Where is the "LMAO" emoji?
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Re: Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:27 am

I heard this morning that the manslaughter charges had been filed against the woman who was pregnant.
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Re: Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:42 am

Dave Roberts wrote:I heard this morning that the manslaughter charges had been filed against the woman who was pregnant.


That makes no senses to me at all.
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Re: Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby Rvaughn » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:32 pm

According to an article yesterday in The Montgomery Advertiser, the DA's office has not yet decided how or if to charge Marshae Jones. Perhaps that has changed, but I did not find it.

Ebony Jemison, the woman who fired the shot that hit Ms. Jones, was arrested and later appeared before a grand jury. Her claim was that she was attacked by Jones and a group of Jones's friends and that she fired a warning shot in self-defense which was not intended to hit Ms. Jones. Apparently the grand jury believed her story. On the other hand, the grand jury apparently thought that Ms. Jones acted recklessly in a way that caused the incident, and therefore ultimately caused the death of her child. Whether this ought to end in the DA trying her for manslaughter (or less, or anything), I can see how it might fit under Alabama's definition of manslaughter.
Alabama Code Title 13A. Criminal Code § 13A-6-3
(a) A person commits the crime of manslaughter if:
(1) He recklessly causes the death of another person, or
(2) He causes the death of another person under circumstances that would constitute murder under Section 13A-6-2; except, that he causes the death due to a sudden heat of passion caused by provocation recognized by law, and before a reasonable time for the passion to cool and for reason to reassert itself.
(b) Manslaughter is a Class B felony.

I suspect the DA will eventually drop it, if for no other reason than the negative attention it has brought them.
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Re: Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby KeithE » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:21 pm

Rvaughn wrote:I suspect the DA will eventually drop it, if for no other reason than the negative attention it has brought them.


You are right, Rvaughn, and in my opinion Alabama (for once) made the right call.

Charges Dropped Against Pregnant Shooting Victim Amid Outcry over the Criminalization of Pregnancy.
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Re: Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:09 pm

Thanks for the info, Keith. I had not followed up on it to see if anything else had happened.

Laying aside the manslaughter issue, I'm not fond of public brawls and gunfire in front a Dollar General store! Perhaps there should be some kind of charges for all of those involved for that.
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Re: Fetal manslaughter by proxy

Postby KeithE » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:34 pm

Rvaughn wrote:Thanks for the info, Keith. I had not followed up on it to see if anything else had happened.

Laying aside the manslaughter issue, I'm not fond of public brawls and gunfire in front a Dollar General store! Perhaps there should be some kind of charges for all of those involved for that.


I agree, some punishment could do some good. But I have no faith in any jail system (especially in Alabama) to do anything redemptive. Placing them in a local jail or prison would probably do more harm than good.

Alabama has a good set of prison-like facilities for “youthful offenders” (aged 14-19 as I remember from our “Epiphany" worker experiences) right in the Birmingham area that attempt reforming the inmate's lives. But these young ladies in the story are too old. Perhaps their mothers/fathers or churches or parole officers will step in. But what we learned from our Epiphanies we have worked, many young women who have done very bad things don’t have effective parents (or parents at all) or positive church experiences. Example: most all of the some 150 girls and 45 boys we have worked with at 4 Epiphanies have never had a birthday party thrown for them (so we throw them one with a separate birthday cake for each on Saturday nights).
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