The Candidate's Positions

The place to discuss politics and policy issues that are not directly related to matters of faith.

Moderator: Jon Estes

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:58 am

Sandy wrote:If the descriptions of Biden's actions by the women who made the accusations are accurate, then the "inappropriate" nature of his behavior is up for debate and depends on perspective. It is not a legitimate comparison to put that in the same sentence with Trump's public admission of his inappropriate grabbing of women's genitals and reveling in their humiliation. Big difference. And he did not "joke" about the accusation.
So "Trump is worse" sanitizes Biden. Got it.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1237
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Sandy » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:39 am

Rvaughn wrote:
Sandy wrote:If the descriptions of Biden's actions by the women who made the accusations are accurate, then the "inappropriate" nature of his behavior is up for debate and depends on perspective. It is not a legitimate comparison to put that in the same sentence with Trump's public admission of his inappropriate grabbing of women's genitals and reveling in their humiliation. Big difference. And he did not "joke" about the accusation.
So "Trump is worse" sanitizes Biden. Got it.


Not if they'd done the same thing. Trump admitted to sexual assault. What Biden did was at one time acceptable as a sign of friendship and acquaintance in our culture. Big difference. And if you don't think there is, then you don't get it.

I've seen pastors embrace women and kiss them on the cheek or above the ear when they approach the front of the church for prayer, which is more than Biden was accused of doing.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9443
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:55 am

Rvaughn wrote: Several women have alleged that in the past now-presidential candidate Joe Biden touched or kissed them inappropriately, or otherwise invaded their personal space. To be fair, Biden he didn't exactly cop to it, and defended his behavior, but then later he joked about the accusations. Now he is the Democratic front runner. But I guess that is alright for him, since the Democrats "make no such claim of self-righteousness."


I make no excuses for Joe's behavior. It's inappropriate. But on a scale, as far as we know he has paid off no prostitutes, peeked at no beauty contestants while dressing, bragged about the ability to grab women's parts, etc. So on a scale of creepy to very creepy, Joe is less creepy than Trump.

And, yes, it does make a difference to me that Evangelicals spent years a la the Moral Majority claiming the importance of morality and then the son of the founder stands in front of playboy magazine covers to pose with likely the most immoral man to sit in the Oval Office. Trump supporting evangelicals have no credibility or respect left to stand on.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6292
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Sandy » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:48 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:And, yes, it does make a difference to me that Evangelicals spent years a la the Moral Majority claiming the importance of morality and then the son of the founder stands in front of playboy magazine covers to pose with likely the most immoral man to sit in the Oval Office. Trump supporting evangelicals have no credibility or respect left to stand on.


Absolutely. Amen to that!

These are not comparable incidents. Take out the fact that if Trump and Biden were not high profile politicians, we would know nothing of either man's behavior, the actions themselves insert a context that provides discernment for intent. Trump himself was the source of information about most of his own sexually abusive behavior, bragging about it to boost his notoriety and celebrity status. There's additional context in that he's provided evidence for numerous affairs and there are hundreds of previous events that are all similar to this exhibition of behavior, which makes any claim of the sort credible as far as he is concerned. Biden's actions may be subjectively labelled as "creepy," but there's not any additional context and as Timothy suggest, not the same category of behavior as Trump's affairs, paying off porn starts to keep quiet about sex and bragging about being able to commit sexual assault because he's famous. The Republicans, who have claimed the moral high ground, now must resort to lying, covering up, excusing or otherwise saying "nah nah nah nah boo boo, Democrats did the same thing too!" when that is not the case at all.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9443
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:17 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:I make no excuses for Joe's behavior. It's inappropriate.
Thanks, Tim. At least you get that. Sandy can't come off his anti-Trump talking points long enough to make that admission. Instead "the 'inappropriate' nature of his behavior is up for debate and depends on perspective," and "what Biden did was at one time acceptable as a sign of friendship and acquaintance in our culture." Maybe in someone's culture. Never has it been acceptable in mine to sniff the hair and kiss the head of someone I don't know -- or to place my hand on the thigh of any lady I'm not married to, even if she didn't squirm and signal she was uncomfortable with it.

Sandy has to pretend that I said what Biden did is the same as what Trump did, even though I did not. If you think I did, then you don't get it. Really. It doesn't have to be the same category or degree for you to answer whether you are or can be satisfied with such behaviour in order to get Trump out of office. I won't expect an answer since Sandy has already deflected these three times.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1237
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:33 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
Tim Bonney wrote:I make no excuses for Joe's behavior. It's inappropriate.
Thanks, Tim. At least you get that.


I do think there was a time men in power clearly got away with bad behavior and most of society overlooked it. Think of the number of Presidents who have had affairs. But, we should expect better from both Dems and Reps.

I'll be less than happy to vote for Joe. He isn't my favorite candidate. But for me he still edges out Trump because of not only Trump's own immorality but his very erratic behavior as a President and poor leadership. If the only choices I have are a creepy old guy for an incompetent yet creepier old guy, I'll hold my nose and vote for the better leader.

That being said there are a lot of candidates in the DNC field I prefer over Biden.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6292
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:04 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:But, we should expect better from both Dems and Reps.
As long as we keep voting for the lesser of two evils, I don't think we can expect it to get any better. (Perhaps politics has become too corrupt and we can't expect it anyway?)
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1237
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Sandy » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:11 pm

Rvaughn wrote:Sandy has to pretend that I said what Biden did is the same as what Trump did, even though I did not.


Yes, you did. This in response to Timothy's statement that he had yet to hear about one of the Democrats saying anything about grabbing women's parts in reference to Trump's statement about grabbing women's genitals. You're making the same comparison with this statement. If it's not the same, don't make a comparison.

Rvaughn wrote: Several women have alleged that in the past now-presidential candidate Joe Biden touched or kissed them inappropriately, or otherwise invaded their personal space.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9443
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:13 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:If the only choices I have are a creepy old guy for an incompetent yet creepier old guy...
I had never thought of Joe Biden as creepy (of course, if he had put his hand on my thigh...), more as just a little goofy in a harmless sort of way. But my wife says he is creepy, and I trust her judgment in those sort of things (usually it is accurate). On the other guy, I think she uses the term "crazy".
:-D
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1237
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:15 pm

Sandy wrote:
Rvaughn wrote:Sandy has to pretend that I said what Biden did is the same as what Trump did, even though I did not.

Yes, you did. This in response to Timothy's statement that he had yet to hear about one of the Democrats saying anything about grabbing women's parts in reference to Trump's statement about grabbing women's genitals. You're making the same comparison with this statement. If it's not the same, don't make a comparison.
No, I didn't, not in the way you claim. You don't seem to be able to comprehend, or more likely are unwillingly to accept what I say I meant, since it doesn't fit your agenda. So I'll not respond to you further on this.
Rvaughn wrote: Several women have alleged that in the past now-presidential candidate Joe Biden touched or kissed them inappropriately, or otherwise invaded their personal space.
Absolutely true.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1237
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Sandy » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:19 pm

Rvaughn wrote:As long as we keep voting for the lesser of two evils, I don't think we can expect it to get any better. (Perhaps politics has become too corrupt and we can't expect it anyway?)


What constitutes the "lesser of two evils"? No one's perfect, but prior to the current administration, we had eight years of an excellent presidency, marred only by the stubborn obstructionism of Mitch McConnell, who failed to achieve his objective of a one term presidency. There's not a single candidate in the Democratic field who could be characterized as the "lesser of two evils" even if the exceptional evil of Trump wasn't a consideration.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9443
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Sandy » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:21 pm

Rvaughn wrote:Several women have alleged that in the past now-presidential candidate Joe Biden touched or kissed them inappropriately, or otherwise invaded their personal space.


"Alleged" being the key word. Unlike Trump, there is no evidence and "inappropriate" is a subjective term that even his accusers did not completely define, at least, if their descriptions to the news media were reported accurately.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9443
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:53 pm

Rvaughn wrote:As long as we keep voting for the lesser of two evils, I don't think we can expect it to get any better. (Perhaps politics has become too corrupt and we can't expect it anyway?)


As long as we have the two party system, that is pretty much the only viable choices we have. But, beyond that, Biden would be a competent President. No one who has been President in generations rises to the level of incompetence of Trump. While I'm disappointed in Biden's less than stellar treatment of women, I'm appalled at Trump at about every level.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6292
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:54 pm

Sandy wrote:
"Alleged" being the key word. Unlike Trump, there is no evidence and "inappropriate" is a subjective term that even his accusers did not completely define, at least, if their descriptions to the news media were reported accurately.


Some of it is alleged. Some of it pretty clearly attested to. I'm not going to make moral excuses for Biden just because he is a democrat.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6292
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:00 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:Some of it is alleged. Some of it pretty clearly attested to.
I'm not aware that Biden has said any of them are lying. His defense, from what I've heard, is sort of "I'm a touchy feely guy, but I don't believe I ever acted inappropriately."
Tim Bonney wrote:I'm not going to make moral excuses for Biden just because he is a democrat.
And therein is my point, which you seem to understand and agree with.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1237
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Sandy » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:05 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
Sandy wrote:
"Alleged" being the key word. Unlike Trump, there is no evidence and "inappropriate" is a subjective term that even his accusers did not completely define, at least, if their descriptions to the news media were reported accurately.


Some of it is alleged. Some of it pretty clearly attested to. I'm not going to make moral excuses for Biden just because he is a democrat.


Not necessary to do so. For one thing, even if you accept the word of the accusers, you have a complaint about personal space and discomfort, no assault, nothing that could be interpreted as going any further than it did. That's not an excuse, that's based on what the accusers said. If he weren't the former VP, a Democrat and running for President, it wouldn't have been considered worth reporting. It isn't "making an excuse" to say that it's not comparable to Trump because it flat out isn't. If he'd been accused of grabbing them by the breast or genitals, or clearly making some kind of advance, then you've got a comparison. Biden doesn't own strip clubs, hasn't been divorced, hasn't been accused of or had an affair, and certainly hasn't bragged about what his celebrity status gets him with women. It's simply not a viable comparison. End of discussion.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9443
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Tim Bonney » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:57 am

Sandy wrote: It's simply not a viable comparison. End of discussion.


You are missing what I'm saying. I'm not comparing the two. But that doesn't mean what Biden did should just be shoved under the rug. It isn't as bad as Trump at all. But nothing should be. Biden is a bit too handsy and in our current culture women are no longer willing to tolerate that. He should have done a better job apologizing for the behavior, even if at the time he didn't realize it was problematic.

I'm not going to excuse mistake Dems make simply because the GOPs candidate is a disaster. My fear is that Trump is lowering the bar of our expectation of behavior and that it may have a long term effect on our expectations as Trump sinks so very low. I don't want to see that happen.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6292
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby KeithE » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:53 am

This post is about candidate positions on public policy.
Last edited by KeithE on Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9191
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Tim Bonney » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:39 pm

KeithE wrote:This post is about candidate positions on public policy.


Sorry Keith. I'll let you all get back to policy discussions. The problem is that the 2020 election will have little to do with policy. It will be a vote on character. The candidate to beat Trump should have better policies. But most importantly the candidate is gong to have to be a person of character rather than Trump, who is basically a lie machine.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6292
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby KeithE » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:17 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
KeithE wrote:This post is about candidate positions on public policy.


Sorry Keith. I'll let you all get back to policy discussions. The problem is that the 2020 election will have little to do with policy. It will be a vote on character. The candidate to beat Trump should have better policies. But most importantly the candidate is gong to have to be a person of character rather than Trump, who is basically a lie machine.

It was mainly a slightly crude joke. See underlined word two posts up (edited). Maybe too subtle.

I do hope “character” will play as highly important. Marianne Williamson accords herself high on that regard, imo. I read “character” into candidates that have the majority of the people in mind and not the powerful corporations or the rich or playing some demagoguery on the voters.

Capability/insight, government experience and industriousness should also be important. Marianne ranks low there, while Elizabeth ranks high, imo.

Sadly,
(1) name recognition as portrayed through the media (left, right and center)
(2) fake news/stories
(3) foreign governments
...
will also play a role.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9191
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Tim Bonney » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:22 pm

KeithE wrote:Sadly,
(1) name recognition as portrayed through the media (left, right and center)
(2) fake news/stories
(3) foreign governments
...
will also play a role.


Yes, those are truths. But, people do have to know who the heck is running. We are at the mercy of of the media to some extend to tell us who people are. I have a love/hate relationship with Facebook. I get a lot of good communication with friends and colleagues through social media. But a lot of people don't know how to tell real news sources from crap. And I am sure Russia and other foreign governments will interfere, particularly since our own government hasn't done anything real to combat it.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6292
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Sandy » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:09 pm

Tim Bonney wrote: And I am sure Russia and other foreign governments will interfere, particularly since our own government hasn't done anything real to combat it.


That's a key issue now. People had better wake up to this. Elections won't matter much if they don't.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9443
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby David Flick » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:12 pm

.
.
. . . . . . . . .
Democrats.
.
.
User avatar
David Flick
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8476
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:55 pm
Location: Oklahoma City, OK

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:08 pm

David Flick wrote:.
.
. . . . . . . . .
Democrats.
.
.


I’m a Democrat and that doesn’t fit me. If one side is promoting sexism and bigotry than politics should absolutely divide us from that.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6292
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: The Candidate's Positions

Postby Sandy » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:09 pm

The cartoonist, of course, mean that to generally apply to both parties. I hear more end of the world stuff from Republicans than from Democrats.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9443
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

PreviousNext

Return to Politics and Public Policy Issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest