Alabama Abortion Bill

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Alabama Abortion Bill

Postby Haruo » Wed May 15, 2019 10:49 pm

Apparently Pat Robertson says it's too extreme. I'm not used to finding myself in agreement with him on issues like this.
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Re: Alabama Abortion Bill

Postby Sandy » Thu May 16, 2019 7:30 pm

It's a bit confusing to determine what those who are against abortion are looking for. For decades, it was simply evil babykilling and they were working to overturn the Roe decision and then get federal legislation to end the practice nationally. There was a time when that might have been possible, but now, I'm not sure that they'll ever get a case in front of the Supreme Court to overturn Roe, which most of the current justices, including some of the right wingers, refer to as "settled law." In some cases, "pro-life" advocates are settling for limits on late term abortions which I see as hypocritical.

This will get struck down by a federal court along the way and the Supreme Court will effectively kill it by not hearing the case. There are seven "settled law" justices when it comes to Roe, and I'm not sure about Gorsuch. Alito would most likely vote to hear the case but if Gorsuch d
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Re: Alabama Abortion Bill

Postby Rvaughn » Thu May 16, 2019 9:15 pm

Sandy wrote:In some cases, "pro-life" advocates are settling for limits on late term abortions which I see as hypocritical.
Could you explain what you mean here? Thanks.
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Re: Alabama Abortion Bill

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu May 16, 2019 10:14 pm

Haruo wrote:Apparently Pat Robertson says it's too extreme. I'm not used to finding myself in agreement with him on issues like this.


New for me to agree with Pat Robertson as well. Most days if he said the sky was blue I’d doubt it.
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Re: Alabama Abortion Bill

Postby Sandy » Fri May 17, 2019 8:33 am

Rvaughn wrote:
Sandy wrote:In some cases, "pro-life" advocates are settling for limits on late term abortions which I see as hypocritical.
Could you explain what you mean here? Thanks.


They are supporting laws like the "fetal heartbeat" law recently passed in Georgia. For political expedience, some of them are saying that there are abortions that are OK, just not after heartbeat detection or later in the term. It's no longer "life begins at conception," it's "because we can't get that kind of law we will settle for this."
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Re: Alabama Abortion Bill

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri May 17, 2019 9:06 am

Sandy wrote:
They are supporting laws like the "fetal heartbeat" law recently passed in Georgia. For political expedience, some of them are saying that there are abortions that are OK, just not after heartbeat detection or later in the term. It's no longer "life begins at conception," it's "because we can't get that kind of law we will settle for this."


I've been told migrant children have heartbeats too. Its a shame they care so much for those yet to be born but not so much for those already born. No abortion but also in Alabama low on funding for education, healthcare, etc.

It isn't pro-life to just be pro-birth.
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Re: Alabama Abortion Bill

Postby Rvaughn » Fri May 17, 2019 9:12 am

Sandy wrote:They are supporting laws like the "fetal heartbeat" law recently passed in Georgia. For political expedience, some of them are saying that there are abortions that are OK, just not after heartbeat detection or later in the term. It's no longer "life begins at conception," it's "because we can't get that kind of law we will settle for this."
Thanks. Perhaps I am not following, but I don't see that it is hypocritical to say, in effect, "if we cannot pass a law that will save 1000 lives, we can at least pass a law that will save 100 lives."

If they are two-faced about what they actually believe, that is a different matter.
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Re: Alabama Abortion Bill

Postby Rvaughn » Fri May 17, 2019 9:13 am

Tim Bonney wrote:I've been told migrant children have heartbeats too. Its a shame they care so much for those yet to be born but not so much for those already born. No abortion but also in Alabama low on funding for education, healthcare, etc.

It isn't pro-life to just be pro-birth.
I assume you are not proposing the solution that we be neither?
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Re: Alabama Abortion Bill

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri May 17, 2019 10:02 am

I'm afraid that I see this bill as an attack on women in poverty and women of color. For those with means and connections, abortions have always been available. I remember back all the way to high school. when all abortion was illegal, it was sometimes rumored that certain prominent young ladies might be pregnant. Suddenly, they were out of school for a few days on a trip after which they returned no longer pregnant. Poor girls had babies. I can already see a new tourist business arising for those with the means, even if Roe is outlawed. They will fly to Israel where all abortions are legal. I'm not advocating for abortion, but I am advocating for equal treatment under the law, the fallacy in this current legislation.
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Re: Alabama Abortion Bill

Postby Sandy » Fri May 17, 2019 11:05 am

Rvaughn wrote:
Tim Bonney wrote:I've been told migrant children have heartbeats too. Its a shame they care so much for those yet to be born but not so much for those already born. No abortion but also in Alabama low on funding for education, healthcare, etc.

It isn't pro-life to just be pro-birth.
I assume you are not proposing the solution that we be neither?


I see very little among the most vocal opponents of abortion to indicate to me that they are really concerned about the sanctity of human life. Almost all of their efforts are focused on changing one small aspect of the law. Where, in Alabama, would an unwed 17 year old, African American girl go if she found out she was pregnant and did not have the resources to even have the child, much less take care of it? To the red brick Southern Baptist church on the courthouse square full of white people in their 70's and 80's? These are people who, by their vote for the politicians they choose, think that anyone who winds up that way is just a deadbeat looking for a handout. I won't paint with a broad brush, there might be a few sympathetic souls in those churches who really do have a heart for ministry and a real concern, but I don't see much. Few people would put their local SBC church on a list of top four places they'd go if they were in desperate need of help. The few ministries that exist among conservative, evangelical churches which would provide any kind of assistance at all hand out a few boxes of diapers here and there and bags of canned food no one else wants. That is not an exaggeration, that is a fact. If there was a real concern about this issue, you should see significant ministry among the churches figuring out how to reach people to lower the total and not repeated attempts to try and get the government to perform a function based on a purely religious conviction.

Several years ago, a Baptist entity that receives CP funds was in the business of helping families adopt children from Russia. Investigating that, I found that the cost was prohibitive, somewhere around $50,000 total, the attorneys get a big chunk of that, though I couldn't figure out why the agency, supported by cooperative program giving, got an exorbitant fee as well. They gave some lip service to helping with unwed mothers at risk of having an abortion but in reality, just made phone calls and legal arrangements. You'd think, if the people in the pews of the denomination which owns and operates the agency were really all that concerned with saving babies from abortion, they'd put some of their CP money and their hefty profits from Russian adoptions into making sure that kids here were adopted instead of aborted. There are a few scattered places that do this, but the people or churches that operate them are mostly those Liberal scum.
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Re: Alabama Abortion Bill

Postby KeithE » Fri May 17, 2019 10:33 pm

Sandy wrote:Several years ago, a Baptist entity that receives CP funds was in the business of helping families adopt children from Russia. Investigating that, I found that the cost was prohibitive, somewhere around $50,000 total, the attorneys get a big chunk of that, though I couldn't figure out why the agency, supported by cooperative program giving, got an exorbitant fee as well. They gave some lip service to helping with unwed mothers at risk of having an abortion but in reality, just made phone calls and legal arrangements. You'd think, if the people in the pews of the denomination which owns and operates the agency were really all that concerned with saving babies from abortion, they'd put some of their CP money and their hefty profits from Russian adoptions into making sure that kids here were adopted instead of aborted. There are a few scattered places that do this, but the people or churches that operate them are mostly those Liberal scum.


Bingo. Adoption of American babies as a suggested alternative for abortion as well as outlawing abortion.

Fetuses have value - they are potential human beings! Thus it is plain wrong to abort a baby-in-the-making and our laws should say so. Saving fetuses, besides being the moral thing to do, is worth spending some money on. They are more important than roads.

To prevent unwanted pregnancies I see four lines of defense, all of which should be fully in play.

(1) A robust birth control program should be administered (probably by the states) and promoted in schools, workplaces, hospitals, doctor's offices, public housing, etc.

(2) Abortion should be completely outlawed except for cases of bonafide/severe health risk to the mother or child. (Side point: I’m not one who favors harsh penalties to the women involved or the doctors/fathers involved at this time in our history as we transition to this better approach).

(3) A mother who finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy should be offered a fairly generous sum of money (say $5000*) to bring her baby to term. Remember babies have value and that money goes to service them in utero. There would be guidelines* of how to spend that money and accountability*. In case of rape, attempts (including garnishment) should be made to recover the cost from him.

The mother who is carrying what she thinks at the moment is unwanted would have three choices - 1) have the child and keep the child, 2) have the child and give him/her up for adoption, 3) get an illegal abortion and face time in prison (say 1 year*, doctor/father to get the same term*)

(4) A state-based adoption agency should place the delivered child with those parent(s) desiring children charging a fee (say $10,000*) - remember babies have value.

This has the moral high ground in that most people involved benefit:

(a) The fetus lives
(b) Most mothers will eventually feel better about not aborting. Some no doubt will be bitter about childbirth without the reward, but it was her choice to accept the money. Some not doubt will break the law and be subject to the law, but just maybe the cavalier attitude about having kids will be corrected.
(c) The adoptive parent(s) will be blessed
(d) The child will be wanted.

RW culture warriors will lose their demagogued issue and may object on grounds that is promotes baby making for money (but the survival of fetuses that this plan involves should be the greater good) and they may ask why help the irresponsible (but remember Christ's attitude towards the woman caught in adultery). True Christ followers are more about redemption while Pharisees are more about pointing out sin and judging others. .

Anti-“gummint" sorts will complain about the state getting involved in family life (but aren’t they already advocating for the gummint to control child birth choices anyway).

* Many variations of costs and other provisions can be discussed/optimized, but the above is the basic idea from this “liberal scum” who cares for “the least of these”.
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