Towards Impeachment

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Towards Impeachment

Postby KeithE » Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:10 am

The shear multiplicity of Trump’s scandals, character flaws, corruption, and cruel policies demand congressional oversight and accountability.

How Bad Does it Have to Get has 30 counts most of which should lead to impeachment and removal.

I understand the real possibility that the Senate would (after an approximately a year long struggle in the House and in the Courts) fail to remove Trump. Then I could just hear Trump claim a “totally exonerated” martyrdom before Nov 2020.

But the Constitutional process should be followed, imo. What do ya’ll think?

Do read and cogitate on the link.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Sandy » Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:43 pm

Unless we want to set a precedent for bypassing the rule of law and ignoring the constitution in the case of Presidents who are also criminals, then this impeachment needs to move forward. They have more specific impeachable offenses on Trump than on Andrew Johnson, Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton combined and if there were a Republican majority in the house, and a Democrat had done a third of what Trump has done, the articles would already be written and passed.

I think the attorney general should also be impeached and removed for lying about the contents of a special investigation report. What he did was way out of the boundaries of "political spin." Even without the redactions, the report is a blistering indictment of Trump, his campaign and a good chunk of his administration. No wonder so many birds flew the coop. And if you want to wade through it, it will take a little while, but it will leave you wondering how the words "no collusion" connect with any of the activity in the report. There was no conspiracy to commit collusion, but there is solid evidence of Russian meddling in the election, purposefully to help Trump get elected and there was campaign information and polling data given to the Russians by members of the Trump campaign. Perhaps there was even a bit of partisan bias on Mueller's part, he is after all still a Republican. Do we want Russia, or perhaps at some point Iran or North Korea, using their resources in the future to help elect someone they see as more beneficial to their regime?

Yes, it's less than two years to the election, and while there is an element of the electorate whose lack of discernment and extremist partisan bias has allowed them to ignore the crimes in favor of partisan social issues and that it is disturbing, though not surprising. But if you look at what Trump has done, it is more important to set politics aside and make sure this man is removed from the Presidency. I think there will be enough senators who, after seriously reading this report and considering the evidence, will decide supporting their country is more important than supporting partisanship. If not, I don't think the American people are going to give him four more years.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby William Thornton » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:11 am

Common Dreams dreams of impeachment. Who would have predicted that?

"Set politics aside" sniffs Sandy who isn't the least bit familiar with that concept.

Follow the "constitutional process" intones Keith who once suggested an unconstitutional re-do of the Trump-Hil election.

You get a vote. I get a vote. All God's chillins, and some felons if the irascible socialist gets his way, gets a vote...in about 18 months. Impeachment would be a disastrous Democratic strategy which is why almost all of the leftists are running from it.

But let's hear from the avuncular, hair sniffing, hair-plugged, Botox-friendly, loose-lipped octogenarian candidate on that.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:18 am

William Thornton wrote:Common Dreams dreams of impeachment. Who would have predicted that?

"Set politics aside" sniffs Sandy who isn't the least bit familiar with that concept.

Follow the "constitutional process" intones Keith who once suggested an unconstitutional re-do of the Trump-Hil election.

You get a vote. I get a vote. All God's chillins, and some felons if the irascible socialist gets his way, gets a vote...in about 18 months. Impeachment would be a disastrous Democratic strategy which is why almost all of the leftists are running from it.

But let's hear from the avuncular, hair sniffing, hair-plugged, Botox-friendly, loose-lipped octogenarian candidate on that.


Gee, and Trump and Biden are only four years different in age. Being in that generation, I wouldn't want that responsibility myself. It seems to me that both parties have been running from allowing a new generation to have a shot at power. It's kinda like the pastors who hang onto big churches into their 80's.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby KeithE » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:42 am

William Thornton wrote:Common Dreams dreams of impeachment. Who would have predicted that?

Why not quibble with some the 30 difficult-to-deny points in the Common Dreams selected article, instead of auto-diss a whole organization??

William Thornton wrote:Follow the "constitutional process" intones Keith who once suggested an unconstitutional re-do of the Trump-Hil election.

True a revote is not mentioned the Constitution. But a revote is not anti-constitutional (not prohibited in Constitution). Given the truths as pointed out in the linked article (How Bad Does it Have to Get):
It’s bad enough that the Russians helped him get elected by manipulating social media in critical electoral college states.
It’s bad enough that he helped the Russians do that by providing them confidential polling data to guide their Facebook ad targeting.
It’s bad enough that those ads were seen by more than 100,000,000 people when the total electoral college difference over three states was 70,000 votes.
It’s bad enough that those involved with his campaign who were also engaged with the Russians lied repeatedly, both publicly and under oath, about that engagement.

the time is ripe to clarify that with a Constitutional Amendment (it was designed to be a living document).

William Thornton wrote:But let's hear from the avuncular, hair sniffing, hair-plugged, Botox-friendly, loose-lipped octogenarian candidate on that.

Ahh William joining Trump in name calling. I’ll take being "hair-sniffing" to proud/admitted "p**** grabbing" anyday.

As for being "hair-plugged” and "Botox friendly”, William is correct- Botox, hair plugs, and veneers
But so what?

BTW:
Donald Trump is turning 73 in June, Biden is 76, Bernie Sanders is 77.

Source

And in my estimate, given their angriness, weight and eating habits, Biden will outlast Trump or Sanders or myself.

Trump is mostly into defending/promoting himself these days as opposed to governing. We need someone who is full-time trying to make America better.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby KeithE » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:46 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
William Thornton wrote:But let's hear from the avuncular, hair sniffing, hair-plugged, Botox-friendly, loose-lipped octogenarian candidate on that.


Gee, and Trump and Biden are only four years different in age. Being in that generation, I wouldn't want that responsibility myself. It seems to me that both parties have been running from allowing a new generation to have a shot at power. It's kinda like the pastors who hang onto big churches into their 80's.


I’m with Dave, it is time for someone younger. Reagan was into some mental decline during the 1984 debates (when he was 73) and certainly in his second term (ending when he was 78), but not yet proven Alzheimers:
Reagan’s doctors said much the same thing (as Ronnie Jackson said about Trump) while he was in office despite the former president’s memory lapses and bouts of confusion in public, most visibly during the 1984 presidential debates and his 1990 Iran-Contra testimony. Incidents such as these led to speculation that he was undergoing a gradual mental decline that those around him didn’t want to admit. A 1987 article in the New Republic posed the troubling question outright: “Is Reagan Senile?”

That was precisely what CBS News reporter Lesley Stahl was asking herself during a 1986 visit with a president she would later describe in her 2000 memoir, Reporting Live, as “shriveled” and verging on catatonic.

“Reagan didn’t seem to know who I was,” she wrote. “He gave me a distant look with those milky eyes and shook my hand weakly. Oh, my, he’s gonzo, I thought.” But a few minutes later, he snapped out of it and from that point on seemed perfectly fine. When asked, White House aides admitted to Stahl that they had witnessed similar episodes.

Source - Snopes Factcheck

We don’t need a self-obsessed President (which clearly have right now) or a mentally declining President (which is clearly possible with Biden, Sanders or Trump).
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Sandy » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:59 am

William Thornton wrote:Impeachment would be a disastrous Democratic strategy which is why almost all of the leftists are running from it.


ROFL :-) . In your dreams maybe. In reality, Trump is stomping around like a mad Elephant, proving with every word that comes out of his mouth the veracity of the criminal acts that Congress has the constutitional power to turn into charges. The Republicans keep shooting themselves in the foot and there are not enough of them to either elect this idiot again or save their senate majority if it doesn't boot his rear out.

Let me guess. William hasn't even looked at the Mueller report, much less read any of it.

Perhaps Republicans can increase their popularity by continuing to separate children from parents at the border, and shriek and cry about them breaking the law while being fine with a President who breaks the law and brags about getting away with it. Keep supporting this guy, it's always good for a laugh.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby William Thornton » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:01 am

Who's calling names? Biden is all of those things. If he was trump's opponent in 2016 rather than the rigged nominee, I might have voted for him.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Sandy » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:02 pm

The rigged nominee? :-) ROFL. Wow, you're full of laugh lines today. I'd have to see some convincing evidence that you'd have voted for Biden over Trump.

Age is a concern. The Presidency is physically and mentally demanding and you can see that in photos taken early in a President's term compared to later. Trump is right up there and exhibits signs of dementia and insanity, which Sanders and Biden don't. There are plenty of younger candidates to choose from as running mates if either of the "old guys" wins the nomination, so It's not a major concern at the top of the list. Once the campaign gets going, and some of the younger candidates get more name recognition and their positions better known, their numbers against Trump will get up there in the lofty heights with Biden and Sanders.

There are some sharp young candidates in the Democratic field that will get a lot of attention over time. Eric Swalwell, a congressman from California, is one of them. I've met him personally on two different occasions, and had an opportunity to discuss a couple of issues. He's a "people's representative," not a partisan hack.

It looks like there might be a couple of Republican primary challengers as well. Well, we already know William Weld is in there. He's no spring chicken, nor is Mitt Romney who is gearing up for a primary challenge to Orange Hair. So youth is on the side of the Democrats.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Haruo » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:20 pm

Regardless of whether anybody in the Trump campaign was "colluding" with the Russians, you have to (or ought to) kinda wonder why the Russians were so gung-ho pro-Trump.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Rvaughn » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:34 pm

Sandy wrote:Unless we want to set a precedent for bypassing the rule of law and ignoring the constitution in the case of Presidents who are also criminals, then this impeachment needs to move forward. They have more specific impeachable offenses on Trump than on Andrew Johnson, Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton combined and if there were a Republican majority in the house, and a Democrat had done a third of what Trump has done, the articles would already be written and passed.
All past impeachment proceedings aside, it seems to me the present complaints you have must fall in the lap of the Democratic Party. Impeachment proceedings begin at the discretion of the House of Representatives, and the Democrats are in the majority in the House.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Sandy » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:47 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
Sandy wrote:Unless we want to set a precedent for bypassing the rule of law and ignoring the constitution in the case of Presidents who are also criminals, then this impeachment needs to move forward. They have more specific impeachable offenses on Trump than on Andrew Johnson, Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton combined and if there were a Republican majority in the house, and a Democrat had done a third of what Trump has done, the articles would already be written and passed.
All past impeachment proceedings aside, it seems to me the present complaints you have must fall in the lap of the Democratic Party. Impeachment proceedings begin at the discretion of the House of Representatives, and the Democrats are in the majority in the House.


Yes, it is up to the Democratic party, though this shouldn't be a partisan issue. There's a little hyperbole in my comments about the Republicans who had their articles of impeachment written up on Clinton and then commissioned a report to try and get evidence to support them. I think the Democrats are waiting to get their hands on an unredacted report. They've picked up some Republican support in the house, and even some in the senate. Knowing that there are Republican senators who would support Trump even if he pulled out a gun and shot someone in cold blood on the senate floor, they want to have enough evidence to get a conviction and if partisanship is going to prevent that, to make it as costly for as many Republican senators as possible in the face of the evidence.

There are some Democrats who are tempted to play politics with this as well. They see how beneficial having Trump in office has been for their party, landslide victories in elections they couldn't possibly have hoped to win prior to Trump. If they impeach and remove him, it means the Republicans have a wide open primary field for the 2020 election and not having orange hair on the ballot changes the scope of everything from campaign contributions, which are pouring into the DNC now, to who the best candidate might be to win. The best course for the country is to go after orange hair, impeach and put enough pressure on enough Republican senators to make them see the wisdom of kicking him out of the White House and saving their political and personal reputation.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Rvaughn » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:41 pm

My pessimistic view of politicians makes me expect that for more than not, whether to impeach is viewed from the standpoint of what political impact it will have.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Sandy » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:11 pm

Rvaughn wrote:My pessimistic view of politicians makes me expect that for more than not, whether to impeach is viewed from the standpoint of what political impact it will have.


That's unfortunate, though I am sure that aspect of it is being considered. Trump has been the goose that lays golden eggs for the Democrats as far as an analogy goes for the political gains they've made since he has been in office. He's the gift that keeps on giving. His presence motivates their people to turn out in large numbers. If he's on the ticket in 2020, the Democrats will win the White House and they have a good shot at gaining control of the Senate this time around, and picking up majorities in several more state houses along with some governorships. If an impeachment is followed by a successful removal, and I think the contents of this report would make that an almost necessity for all but a few GOP senators up for re-election in 2020, that cuts off a lot of golden eggs. On the other hand, I'm sure many Democrats realize that impeachment without a successful senate trial would yield a whole spectrum of political benefits.

But you can't stick your finger into the wind and decide on something like this. If you believe he committed the crimes, and the report indicates that he did, then impeachment is the right thing to do regardless. And in the long run, even if politics is your motive, failing to impeach would do more political damage than going forward would.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Joseph Patrick » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:48 pm

Sandy wrote:
Rvaughn wrote:My pessimistic view of politicians makes me expect that for more than not, whether to impeach is viewed from the standpoint of what political impact it will have.


That's unfortunate, though I am sure that aspect of it is being considered. Trump has been the goose that lays golden eggs for the Democrats as far as an analogy goes for the political gains they've made since he has been in office. He's the gift that keeps on giving. His presence motivates their people to turn out in large numbers. If he's on the ticket in 2020, the Democrats will win the White House and they have a good shot at gaining control of the Senate this time around and picking up majorities in several more state houses along with some governorships. If impeachment is followed by a successful removal, and I think the contents of this report would make that an almost necessity for all but a few GOP senators up for re-election in 2020, that cuts off a lot of golden eggs. On the other hand, I'm sure many Democrats realize that impeachment without a successful Senate trial would yield a whole spectrum of political benefits.

But you can't stick your finger into the wind and decide on something like this. If you believe he committed the crimes, and the report indicates that he did, then impeachment is the right thing to do regardless. And in the long run, even if politics is your motive, failing to impeach would do more political damage than going forward would.


From Gerry Milligan...While I agree that the report did indicate that president Bone Spur (apologies to William) committed crimes, I disagree that impeachment is what should be done unless some of our invertebrate GOP lawmakers would agree, and as the chances of Baylor winning the national championship in football, that will probably not happen in our lifetime.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Sandy » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:33 pm

If you hold the legal perspective that a sitting President cannot be indicted for crimes he either commits while in office or before he was elected, then constitutionally the only body where he can be held accountable is Congress. He committed crimes, not just those in the Mueller report. If the Republicans, who invented a crime to accuse Bill Clinton and then moved forward knowing they didn't have a chance of getting a conviction in the senate, are not willing to consider Trump's multiple felonies, then they are hypocrites and liars and should be voted out. Even if it changes the scope of the 2020 election, the Democrats need to get this president's criminal acts on the record and put about a dozen up for re-election senators on a hot seat to squirm if they fail to vote to remove.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed May 01, 2019 3:32 pm

My thought is that the hesitancy to begin impeachment proceedings may reflect a historical awareness that the impeachments brought have never resulted in the conviction and expulsion of a POTUS from office. Rather, each has followed its own path. The impeachment of Andrew Johnson failed by one vote I the Senate. Richard Nixon's never came to a vote as he resigned in fear that he would lose. Bill Clinton's was many votes shy as I recall. An impeachment resolution in the House might result in an emasculation of the Trump presidency, but even if the Senate flips, there is little likelihood that conviction is possible.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Haruo » Wed May 01, 2019 7:51 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:My thought is that the hesitancy to begin impeachment proceedings may reflect a historical awareness that the impeachments brought have never resulted in the conviction and expulsion of a POTUS from office. Rather, each has followed its own path. The impeachment of Andrew Johnson failed by one vote I the Senate. Richard Nixon's never came to a vote as he resigned in fear that he would lose. Bill Clinton's was many votes shy as I recall. An impeachment resolution in the House might result in an emasculation of the Trump presidency, but even if the Senate flips, there is little likelihood that conviction is possible.

And with the current Senate, this one would most likely follow the Clinton model.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Sandy » Thu May 02, 2019 9:04 am

Haruo wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:My thought is that the hesitancy to begin impeachment proceedings may reflect a historical awareness that the impeachments brought have never resulted in the conviction and expulsion of a POTUS from office. Rather, each has followed its own path. The impeachment of Andrew Johnson failed by one vote I the Senate. Richard Nixon's never came to a vote as he resigned in fear that he would lose. Bill Clinton's was many votes shy as I recall. An impeachment resolution in the House might result in an emasculation of the Trump presidency, but even if the Senate flips, there is little likelihood that conviction is possible.

And with the current Senate, this one would most likely follow the Clinton model.


Maybe.

The difference here is that they actually have something of substance. One of the news programs last night mentioned that up to this point, only three percent of Americans have read the Mueller report. They already have far more on Trump than they had on Clinton. The details of the report, even with redactions, give evidence of impeachable offenses far beyond the scope of anything that any previous impeachment has ever had, except Nixon and he quit and negotiated a pardon before they could get him. All of Barr's muttering that even though there is massive obstruction of justice and conspiracy to commit obstruction, it doesn't count because there was nothing to investigate is just passing gas. The redacted portions of that report contain evidence of considerable collusion between the Russians and the Trump campaign and that's exactly why Barr is there and why they're redacted. So start the impeachment, call Mueller to testify and bypass the obfuscating and get to the bottom of it. Once the details of that report become completely public and part of a daily news cycle, there will be enough pressure on enough Republicans to boot orange hair out, or at least, ensure that neither he nor a majority of the republican senators now up for re-election survive November of 2020. I think the contents of that report are that bad.

If you want a real picture of just how bad the contents of that report are, take a look at poor Lindsey Graham. His normal temperament has been replaced by a nervous, squinting, hostile, frightened, paranoid, overly stressed partisan who sees what might be coming down the road. He's exhausting himself trying to manipulate the hearings and keep the information quiet. He limited the questioning of the committee members to 5 minutes each. That's paranoia to the tenth power.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu May 02, 2019 9:32 am

Graham is up for re-election in 2020. He is afraid he will not be returning from SC. That's what all the nervousness is about. He is trying to placate the SC electorate which for the first time looks questionable on sending him back.
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To Reinforce the Obvious

Postby KeithE » Fri May 03, 2019 11:10 pm

Donald Trump Is the Most Impeachable President in American History

Impeaching the President by Alan Hirsch, a Constitutional Scholar. Includes a 57 minute interview with Hirsch.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Tim Bonney » Sat May 04, 2019 5:01 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:My thought is that the hesitancy to begin impeachment proceedings may reflect a historical awareness that the impeachments brought have never resulted in the conviction and expulsion of a POTUS from office. Rather, each has followed its own path. The impeachment of Andrew Johnson failed by one vote I the Senate. Richard Nixon's never came to a vote as he resigned in fear that he would lose. Bill Clinton's was many votes shy as I recall. An impeachment resolution in the House might result in an emasculation of the Trump presidency, but even if the Senate flips, there is little likelihood that conviction is possible.


Agreed Dave. I don't think impeachment should be pursued knowing there is little to no chance of a conviction. While it fires up the DNC base it also fires up the Trump base and just might give him a boost in his polls.

I'm mostly a political pragmatist. We need a DNC candidate who can beat Trump in the general election. The Dems have a long history of the circular firing squad. If we aren't careful we will hand Trump four more years. We need to be unified when we go to the general election. That's the win not impeachment.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Sandy » Sun May 05, 2019 10:03 am

Tim Bonney wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:My thought is that the hesitancy to begin impeachment proceedings may reflect a historical awareness that the impeachments brought have never resulted in the conviction and expulsion of a POTUS from office. Rather, each has followed its own path. The impeachment of Andrew Johnson failed by one vote I the Senate. Richard Nixon's never came to a vote as he resigned in fear that he would lose. Bill Clinton's was many votes shy as I recall. An impeachment resolution in the House might result in an emasculation of the Trump presidency, but even if the Senate flips, there is little likelihood that conviction is possible.


Agreed Dave. I don't think impeachment should be pursued knowing there is little to no chance of a conviction. While it fires up the DNC base it also fires up the Trump base and just might give him a boost in his polls.

I'm mostly a political pragmatist. We need a DNC candidate who can beat Trump in the general election. The Dems have a long history of the circular firing squad. If we aren't careful we will hand Trump four more years. We need to be unified when we go to the general election. That's the win not impeachment.


Trump's poll numbers now against the Democrats are the weakest of any incumbent President since Carter, and he's about where Carter was in 1980. But that shouldn't deter an impeachment proceeding regardless of the politics involved If a sitting president committed crimes, I mean real crimes, not the weak definition of "high crimes and misdeleanors" applied to Clinton, then the impeachment should go forward. There's plenty of evidence, not just from the Russia investigation. All of that stuff would get subpoenas and get laid out for everyone to see. Yeah, there's about 30% of his hard core supporters who wear blinders and plead ignorance but an impeachment would allow thinking Americans to see how bad this guy is. And I believe, when the evidence is out, Republican senators that fail to support giving him the boot would lose their re-election bids, at least in most places.

In political terms, yes, beating him to the ground in November seems like the best route to go, and given the poll numbers (he's even trailing Pete Buttigieg) that looks very promising. But if he committed crimes, and clearly he and his gang committed many of them, impeachment is the right thing to do
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Tim Bonney » Sun May 05, 2019 12:01 pm

Sandy wrote:In political terms, yes, beating him to the ground in November seems like the best route to go, and given the poll numbers (he's even trailing Pete Buttigieg) that looks very promising. But if he committed crimes, and clearly he and his gang committed many of them, impeachment is the right thing to do


It could be a “right” thing to do. But I doubt it is the wise things to do. Beat him at the polls, elected anyone named “NOT TRUMP” and let the prosecutors go after him for crimes after he is out of office. Impeachment will be a political circus with NO end game.
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Re: Towards Impeachment

Postby Sandy » Tue May 07, 2019 8:46 pm

If a president committed crimes, and the report is pretty clear that this one did, then he needs to be held accountable. Trump has been trying every trick in the book to use the power of the presidency to move heaven and earth to keep people from seeing this thing. If he's innocent, and cleared, and it's over, then just release the whole report yourself if you've got nothing to lose. Otherwise, why move people into place to lie for you and then violate the constitutional provisions of the job they've been appointed to serve in order to run interference for you? This is how the wealthy live above the law. So if you support trump, then stop whining about the second amendment or people coming across the border illegally. You can't support him and believe in the law.

Otherwise, this sets a precedent for every future presidency and the Republicans need to start thinking about those consequences because they are heading into a long stretch of Democratic controlled congresses and presidencies.

I think the best campaign strategy the Democrats now have to win in 2020 is to move forward with impeachment and make sure that every single senator is on the record and on television being asked the question, "Do you think it is ok for the president to commit this crime and get away with it?" for every single one of the obstruction charges in that report. I guarantee you, any Republican senator that doesn't vote to boot him who is up for re-election in 2020 will lose their seat. It will also increase the already heavy odds in favor of whomever the Democrats nominate for the presidency.
Sandy
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