Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:28 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:The actions of the group, which is supported by the Unitarian/Universalist Church, are straight out of MLK's procedures to get arrested in the hope of awakening the consciences of religious people. Our memories are short. These people are deliberately risking arrest as an act of religious conscience.


Many UUA folks don't even claim to be Christian. But their actions here certainly are Christlike.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Haruo » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:27 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:The actions of the group, which is supported by the Unitarian/Universalist Church, are straight out of MLK's procedures to get arrested in the hope of awakening the consciences of religious people. Our memories are short. These people are deliberately risking arrest as an act of religious conscience.
Ed, I don't know why Keith's link doesn't work for you, but anyway, the name of the organization that puts water in the desert is called No More Deaths.
Ed wrote:Ed: Dave, I am late getting into this discussion, started reading somewhere in the middle of the thread. What is the group you refer to, clicking the link in Keith's first post only leads to a blank page.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby KeithE » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:15 am

Border Control Agents have kicked over water jugs meant for migrants making dangerous treks.

Click and watch.

This is not an isolated incidence.

Our country needs to be better than this!

There is simply no “crisis” in terms of the numbers of illegals in the US. That is pure Trump demagoguery and many are falling for it.
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Nor are these immigrants (legals and otherwise) adding to crime rates.

Image

And please remember immigrants (legal and otherwise) are good for the USA economically. Please read The Economic Case for Immigration and show me that you have read it.

The true crisis (a moral one) is in our lack of humanitarian treatment of those knocking at our southern border. This topic points out one of those anti-humanitarian processes that is on the rise. 2600 children separated from parents is another.

Changing this mistreatment is what would Make America Great. This No More Death advocacy group should be celebrated and helped not charged with crimes.

The idiocy of those that are taken in by Trump’s demagoguery has Made America Worse.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby JE Pettibone » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:25 pm

KeithE wrote:Border Control Agents have kicked over water jugs meant for migrants making dangerous treks.

Click and watch.

This is not an isolated incidence.

Our country needs to be better than this!

There is simply no “crisis” in terms of the numbers of illegals in the US. That is pure Trump demagoguery and many are falling for it.
Image

Nor are these immigrants (legals and otherwise) adding to crime rates.

Image

And please remember immigrants (legal and otherwise) are good for the USA economically. Please read The Economic Case for Immigration and show me that you have read it.

The true crisis (a moral one) is in our lack of humanitarian treatment of those knocking at our southern border. This topic points out one of those anti-humanitarian processes that is on the rise. 2600 children separated from parents is another.

Changing this mistreatment is what would Make America Great. This No More Death advocacy group should be celebrated and helped not charged with crimes.

The idiocy of those that are taken in by Trump’s demagoguery has Made America Worse.


Ed: Keith since you are so brilliant and financially comfortable perhaps you should get engaged in local Democratic party and persuade them to back you in a bid for the presidency. (TIC)

I read the US News and World Report story (Economic case for immigration). And I am not persuaded that a "case" can be made based on an "estimate" without at least some explanation as to how the estimate was calculated.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Rvaughn » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:00 pm

KeithE wrote:Border Control Agents have kicked over water jugs meant for migrants making dangerous treks.

Click and watch.
This video strikes me as odd on a few levels. First, if people are being arrested for trespassing for entering the Cabeza Prieta Refuge without a permit, how are they there to film the Border Control agents? Second, why would the Border Control agents allow them to film them committing such an act? (Or are we talking hidden cameras or drones?) Third, in the trial of Natalie Hoffman, Oona Holcomb, Madeline Huse, and Zaachila Orozco, Judge Bernardo Velasco told the women that their actions violated the national decision to maintain the Refuge in its pristine nature. If so, did not the actions of the Border Control agents also violate the pristine nature of the refuge (particularly in kicking over water jugs and just walking off and leaving them there)?

All those questions together make we wonder, "Is there any way to know this video wasn't staged?"
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby KeithE » Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:08 pm

JE Pettibone said:
Keith since you are so brilliant and financially comfortable perhaps you should get engaged in local Democratic party and persuade them to back you in a bid for the presidency. (TIC)

I read the US News and World Report story (Economic case for immigration). And I am not persuaded that a "case" can be made based on an "estimate" without at least some explanation as to how the estimate was calculated.


Thanks, Ed! But I’m not photogenic or well spoken or rich enough to run for national office. -)

The only 2 “estimates" (named as such) in the US News and World Report story (Economic Case for immigration) are:

1) the number of “illegal immigrants in the US workforce” that the Pew Research Center performed and
2) the "tax revenues generated by illegal immigrants” estimated by the Social Security Administration.

If you clicked on the “8 million” for illegal immigrants in the US workforce, you would have been led to the Pew story that showed the data history (7.8 million, not 8 million in 2017). That story gave it’s methodology at http://www.pewhispanic.org/2018/11/27/unauthorized-immigration-estimate-methodology/. Especially look at the section "Labor force and workers” for this particular estimate.

If you click on "$13B” for tax revenues you would have been led to a Social Security Administration paper that gave that methodology and data.

Those links gave far more than “at least some explanation as to how the estimate was calculated” if you were willing to dig.

Study the matter yourself and offer something here.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Sandy » Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:35 pm

That almost looks like it could be a border patrol security camera.

I grew up in Southern Arizona, and I've been in the Cabeza Prieta wildlife refuge on many occasions. It is an inhospitable, largely uninhabited area of mountainous, rocky desert. If you chose to cross the border illegally there, your hope of survival would be to either head for the small hamlet of Why at the junction of state routes 85 and 86, or the small mining town of Ajo, about 40 miles north of the border, or further east to one of the villages on the Tohono O'Odham Reservation. Ajo is about a 50-60 mile hike wandering through wilderness over rugged mountains, the reservation is about a 70 mile hike. A small border patrol group with good surveillance equipment could catch just about anyone coming through there before reaching either destination for a teensie fraction of the cost of the trump boondoggle.

Here's the humanitarian argument. The only people who would be willing to set out on that kind of risky trip are those who are desperate for a better life, even just a tiny bit better. The terrorists and drug lords don't have to risk that, they have the resources to avoid it, and they're smuggling their stuff right through the ports of entry.

What I'm having a hard time with is the hard-heartedness and lack of any human sympathy exhibited on the part of many of the Christians who support Trump. I just don't get that. I honestly believe, from all of the tweets and statements Trump has left on the subject, that he harbors genuine hatred toward Latinos, especially if they are poor and want to come to the US to make a better life. So the Christians who are openly supportive of him because he has deceived them into thinking he's going to be the guy who does something about abortion have changed their Bibles and their theology to accommodate his hatred.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby KeithE » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:17 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
KeithE wrote:Border Control Agents have kicked over water jugs meant for migrants making dangerous treks.

Click and watch.
This video strikes me as odd on a few levels. First, if people are being arrested for trespassing for entering the Cabeza Prieta Refuge without a permit, how are they there to film the Border Control agents? Second, why would the Border Control agents allow them to film them committing such an act? (Or are we talking hidden cameras or drones?) Third, in the trial of Natalie Hoffman, Oona Holcomb, Madeline Huse, and Zaachila Orozco, Judge Bernardo Velasco told the women that their actions violated the national decision to maintain the Refuge in its pristine nature. If so, did not the actions of the Border Control agents also violate the pristine nature of the refuge (particularly in kicking over water jugs and just walking off and leaving them there)?

All those questions together make we wonder, "Is there any way to know this video wasn't staged?"


More on this kind of sabotage :
Caught on Camera. Watch it is less than 2 minutes long.

The kicking incident is not an isolated or recent event. The kicking video I posted was apparently from 2012 from a hidden camera set up by No More Deaths (NMD) who surveilled the areas from 2012 to 2015. (not Border Control security cameras as Sandy suggested) Approximately 3500 gallons have been vandalized according to those NMD cameras and food has also been destroyed. This despite the fact that the US Border Control Agency forbids and punishes such actions by their agents.

Watch also the film The Second Cooler's trailer (2 minutes long) by my friend Ellin Jimmerson (discussed often here on BL) which tells of the many deaths (more than 9/11 and Katrina combined) that occurs on these treks.

Where is our humanity as a nation? These people want to come to us. Even if we cannot accept them all, we can rescue them. We can also attempt to make their native lands more democratic, crime free, and economically sound. That would Make America Great.

The notion that those providing humanitarian aid are doing illegal things is what is of recent vintage, resulting in their arrests for doing good.

Hope this makes the video less “odd” for you Rvaughn.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:10 am

Sandy wrote:...the Cabeza Prieta wildlife refuge...is an inhospitable, largely uninhabited area of mountainous, rocky desert...The only people who would be willing to set out on that kind of risky trip are those who are desperate for a better life, even just a tiny bit better. The terrorists and drug lords don't have to risk that, they have the resources to avoid it, and they're smuggling their stuff right through the ports of entry.
I agree. I don't see that any terrorists and drug lords would be wandering around in this wilderness on foot. Unlikely and unnecessary.
Sandy wrote:If you chose to cross the border illegally there, your hope of survival would be to either head for the small hamlet of Why at the junction of state routes 85 and 86, or the small mining town of Ajo, about 40 miles north of the border, or further east to one of the villages on the Tohono O'Odham Reservation. Ajo is about a 50-60 mile hike wandering through wilderness over rugged mountains, the reservation is about a 70 mile hike. A small border patrol group with good surveillance equipment could catch just about anyone coming through there before reaching either destination for a teensie fraction of the cost of the trump boondoggle.
Is there no border patrol group with good surveillance equipment? If not, why not? It seems also that one could argue that a barrier that keeps migrants out of the inhospitable Cabeza Prieta wildlife refuge would also save lives.
KeithE wrote:Hope this makes the video less “odd” for you Rvaughn.
Yes, that helps. (Also, the time-stamp being off on the original video was another source of "oddity".) The fact from this report that the Border Patrol recognizes as valid videos that puts them in a negative light supports their authenticity. That is enough to satisfy me. Also good to know that the U.S. Customs and Border Patrol will punish these actions of their agents, up to termination of the employee.
KeithE wrote:Watch also the film The Second Cooler's trailer (2 minutes long) by my friend Ellin Jimmerson (discussed often here on BL) which tells of the many deaths (more than 9/11 and Katrina combined) that occurs on these treks.
A two-minute trailer is fine, but I'm not inclined to purchase to the documentary. A link to something written (with free access) about the impact of the free trade agreement, militarization of the border, lack of a legal way for poor Latin Americans to come to the United States, and the abuses of the guest worker program would be a nice link to have.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:07 am

Sandy wrote:...the Cabeza Prieta wildlife refuge...is an inhospitable, largely uninhabited area of mountainous, rocky desert...The only people who would be willing to set out on that kind of risky trip are those who are desperate for a better life, even just a tiny bit better. The terrorists and drug lords don't have to risk that, they have the resources to avoid it, and they're smuggling their stuff right through the ports of entry.
Rvaughn wrote:I agree. I don't see that any terrorists and drug lords would be wandering around in this wilderness on foot. Unlikely and unnecessary.
Or perhaps we are wrong. This is very old news and this may be different now, but this ABC news report I found while searching for information suggests there were problems with terrorists and drug smugglers.
Are National Parks Becoming Crime Havens?
...Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument on the border of Arizona and Mexico, where a handful of rangers are forced to patrol more than 30 miles of border.
(Admittedly Organ Pipe Cactus is not Cabeza Prieta National Wildlife Refuge, but next to it.)
And Wirth isn't just speculating that individuals with ties to terrorist groups have entered the parks; he said it has actually happened...Wirth told us about several terrorists who had ties to our national parks...Another was Wadih el Hage, an al Qaeda member convicted of conspiracy in the 1998 East Africa embassy bombings case. A decade earlier, Wirth says, a park ranger in an Arizona national park found him taking target practice with a fully automatic AK-47.

In August 2002, 28-year-old Kris Eggle, a ranger at Arizona's Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument, was killed while investigating a carjacking involving some smugglers who had fled from Mexico into the park. He was hit by three rounds from an AK-47.

This article from the National Wildlife Federation, No Safe Refuge (also old, from 2006), says professional drug smugglers were a problem in Cabeza Prieta, Organ Pipe and the Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation -- with 438,000 pounds of marijuana and 1,700 pounds of cocaine confiscated on its way through them in 2005. This may have changed and been corrected since then, but I take back my assumption that such problems would not likely exist in these places.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Sandy » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:23 am

Rvaughn wrote: Is there no border patrol group with good surveillance equipment? If not, why not? It seems also that one could argue that a barrier that keeps migrants out of the inhospitable Cabeza Prieta wildlife refuge would also save lives.


My understanding is that there is good surveillance, and that the number of illegals apprehended in the area indicates that it is effective. It is one of the main arguments for why there is not a need for a wall all along the southern border. That doesn't stop them from making the attempt. There's a highway that runs right along the border on the Mexican side out of the city of Sonoyta less than 50 yards from the border so there's a slatted metal fence that runs west from the port of entry at Lukeville, Arizona but that's where most of those headed into the US cross. Then depending on how far west they went, it's a 40 or 50 mile walk to Why or Ajo. When I was a kid, the pecan growers and cotton farmers from the Gila Valley just north of there would drive down there and pick them up to bring them to work. When the season was over, they'd drop them off just a few miles north of the border. Now, there's a Border Patrol checkpoint on 85 just south of Why, so they can't do that anymore.

For those who are setting out the food and water, it's not a matter of hindering the border patrol. It's just a matter of saving lives. They know people are going to make it that far, and they know what a treacherous hike that can be, especially in the spring, summer or fall. Having water and food out there doesn't hinder the border patrol. Dozens of people die on that trek, to think there's something illegal or immoral or wrong with those who want to prevent that from happening is antichrist behavior.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Sandy » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:43 am

Rvaughn wrote: This article from the National Wildlife Federation, No Safe Refuge (also old, from 2006), says professional drug smugglers were a problem in Cabeza Prieta, Organ Pipe and the Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation -- with 438,000 pounds of marijuana and 1,700 pounds of cocaine confiscated on its way through them in 2005. This may have changed and been corrected since then, but I take back my assumption that such problems would not likely exist in these places.


2000 to 2008 was the Bush administration. The drugs and smuggling were a problem then, because enforcement was thin due to the budget cuts that were put in place by the tax cuts given to the wealthy. The Border Patrol complained that they couldn't repair their surveillance equipment, there were too few officers on patrol especially along the border between Nogales and Yuma which includes Organ Pipe and Cabeza Prieta, and they didn't have the vehicles to get in there, or enough aerial surveillance or weapons to counter the drug smugglers and the "Coyotes" who were smuggling people across. But if you'll look at Keith's chart, that was also the same time when the number of illegals in the United States peaked.

Since 2008, there have been a lot of changes. I was down that way four years ago, from Tucson over to Why and down to Puerto Penasco, Sonora through the Lukeville port of entry. Both highways, 86 and 85, run traffic through border patrol search stations. You can see several radar stations from the highway. We passed two or three pullouts between Why and Lukeville where there were pairs of border patrol vehicles parked, SUV's and all-terrain vehicles. What I hear from family and friends is that most of the drug smuggling has been cleaned up in those places by increased surveillance. Every now and then, I read in the local paper from my hometown that there was a bust somewhere along I-10 or US 80 when local law enforcement was alerted by Border Patrol surveillance. Driving into Arizona on any highway heading north, including side roads, the Border Patrol has built these huge covered sheds over the highway and everyone has to stop. They didn't have the money to do that when Bush was president.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:53 am

Sandy wrote:For those who are setting out the food and water, it's not a matter of hindering the border patrol. It's just a matter of saving lives. They know people are going to make it that far, and they know what a treacherous hike that can be, especially in the spring, summer or fall. Having water and food out there doesn't hinder the border patrol. Dozens of people die on that trek, to think there's something illegal or immoral or wrong with those who want to prevent that from happening is antichrist behavior.
Illegal and immoral are not the same. In this case, based on what I've seen of the Refuge's rules & regulations, and Judge Velasco's ruling, what the aid workers did technically is illegal (illegal entry and leaving behind materials). That certainly doesn't make it immoral.
Sandy wrote:2000 to 2008 was the Bush administration...They didn't have the money to do that when Bush was president.
Thanks for the update with the more current situation.

I realized up front that what I posted was outdated information, but my point was that it challenged the assumption I had (and that you seemed to imply) that drug smugglers would not cross there simply due to the inhospitable nature of the terrain. That has not changed; it is the enforcement that has changed.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby KeithE » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:28 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
KeithE wrote:Watch also the film The Second Cooler's trailer (2 minutes long) by my friend Ellin Jimmerson (discussed often here on BL) which tells of the many deaths (more than 9/11 and Katrina combined) that occurs on these treks.
A two-minute trailer is fine, but I'm not inclined to purchase to the documentary. A link to something written (with free access) about the impact of the free trade agreement, militarization of the border, lack of a legal way for poor Latin Americans to come to the United States, and the abuses of the guest worker program would be a nice link to have.

Understand being disinclined in buying the documentary. I’ll try to provide some of the requested backup, as time allows. I don’t know if it will buttress all of the claims in the Second Cooler or not (and I would feel awkward calling Ellin Jimmerson), but the amount of deaths in these trips across the border (well before “caravans”) should astound us all. Not trying to be snippy, but you know you can do research as well. I'd like to know what percentage of the 1000’s of deaths was due to drug transport, asylum seekers, and economic opportunity seekers.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby JE Pettibone » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:46 pm

Ed: Here is another case. Another do-gooder's efforts challenged. (https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018 ... -arrested-
migrants-water) My view I am sure will not be popular here, but I will listen to any arguments and welcome any agreement.

I believe the people putting out food and water are unwitting bait setters rather than true humanitarians.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:01 pm

KeithE wrote:...Not trying to be snippy, but you know you can do research as well...
No snippiness intended, none taken. I thought you might already be aware of such writing. If not, no worries.
JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: Here is another case. Another do-gooder's efforts challenged. ( https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018 ... -arrested-
migrants-water ) My view I am sure will not be popular here, but I will listen to any arguments and welcome any agreement.

I believe the people putting out food and water are unwitting bait setters rather than true humanitarians.
Ed, that link seems to have gotten discombobulated. Is this the article?
https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/jan/26/scott-warren-no-more-death-arrested-migrants-water
I'm not sure of your meaning "bait setters," but it does seem to me that some of these folks have a political agenda beyond just being humanitarians.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby JE Pettibone » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:41 pm

Thank you Robert for correcting that link. Yes that is the right item. Note, I said unwitting bait setters. The water and food that they set out temps illegal immigrants to cross a dangerous area with no other support.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby JE Pettibone » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:42 pm

Thank you Robert
Last edited by JE Pettibone on Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:09 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:Thank you Robert for correcting that link.
You're welcome.
JE Pettibone wrote:Note, I said unwitting bait setters. The water and food that they set out temps illegal immigrants to cross a dangerous area with no other support.
Thanks. Yes, now I understand what you mean.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Sandy » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:56 pm

Rvaughn wrote: I realized up front that what I posted was outdated information, but my point was that it challenged the assumption I had (and that you seemed to imply) that drug smugglers would not cross there simply due to the inhospitable nature of the terrain. That has not changed; it is the enforcement that has changed.


Before the enforcement and surveillance increased, there was some drug smuggling through that area, not a lot, not in comparison to the major ports of entry in California or Texas, but there was some. But now that the enforcement has been increased, the drug smugglers have gone elsewhere. That leaves either the migrant workers or those who are desperate to find refuge in the US willing to risk the trip. Hence, that has prompted those with some level of compassion to leave food and water.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Haruo » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:34 pm

The criminalization of doing good, of feeding the hungry, freeing the captives, and giving water to the thirsty is in my view criminal (at least in moral terms, if not legal). And using "do-gooder" as a pejorative epithet for those who do these things just strikes me as weird and sick. Did you not hear Jesus? That really is what it makes me want to ask. Ed, I know you are a Christian, but I cannot for the life of me see how you can reconcile following Christ with making pejorative comments about people who attempt to do what Matthew 25 says not doing as a nation will get you sent to the left to depart with the goats for.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby JE Pettibone » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:57 am

Haruo wrote:The criminalization of doing good, of feeding the hungry, freeing the captives, and giving water to the thirsty is in my view criminal (at least in moral terms, if not legal). And using "do-gooder" as a pejorative epithet for those who do these things just strikes me as weird and sick. Did you not hear Jesus? That really is what it makes me want to ask. Ed, I know you are a Christian, but I cannot for the life of me see how you can reconcile following Christ with making pejorative comments about people who attempt to do what Matthew 25 says not doing as a nation will get you sent to the left to depart with the goats for.


Ed: Hauro, Mathew 25, nor does any other scripture suggest that we are to aid and abet Illegal activity. Did not Jesus say "Render unto Caeser that which is Caeser's? And BTW, you seem to be ignoring the point about tempting the Illegals into an extremely dangerous path where many have already died. As a Christian I take this stance because I believe that the activity of those arrested while perhaps well intentioned only poured fuel on the fire, by giving hope to masses while only the exceptionally strong could possibly survive. This country has a viable system for accepting true refuges, anyone assisting other to enter illegally needs to be arrested and given the opportunity to present his or her case to a judge. That is the risk of "Civil Disobedience".
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby KeithE » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:09 am

Haruo wrote:The criminalization of doing good, of feeding the hungry, freeing the captives, and giving water to the thirsty is in my view criminal (at least in moral terms, if not legal). And using "do-gooder" as a pejorative epithet for those who do these things just strikes me as weird and sick. Did you not hear Jesus? That really is what it makes me want to ask. Ed, I know you are a Christian, but I cannot for the life of me see how you can reconcile following Christ with making pejorative comments about people who attempt to do what Matthew 25 says not doing as a nation will get you sent to the left to depart with the goats for.

Great words Haruo!
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Haruo » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:44 am

JE Pettibone wrote:
Haruo wrote:The criminalization of doing good, of feeding the hungry, freeing the captives, and giving water to the thirsty is in my view criminal (at least in moral terms, if not legal). And using "do-gooder" as a pejorative epithet for those who do these things just strikes me as weird and sick. Did you not hear Jesus? That really is what it makes me want to ask. Ed, I know you are a Christian, but I cannot for the life of me see how you can reconcile following Christ with making pejorative comments about people who attempt to do what Matthew 25 says not doing as a nation will get you sent to the left to depart with the goats for.


Ed: Haruo, Mathew 25, nor does any other scripture suggest that we are to aid and abet Illegal activity. Did not Jesus say "Render unto Caeser that which is Caeser's? And BTW, you seem to be ignoring the point about tempting the Illegals into an extremely dangerous path where many have already died. As a Christian I take this stance because I believe that the activity of those arrested while perhaps well intentioned only poured fuel on the fire, by giving hope to masses while only the exceptionally strong could possibly survive. This country has a viable system for accepting true refuges, anyone assisting other to enter illegally needs to be arrested and given the opportunity to present his or her case to a judge. That is the risk of "Civil Disobedience".

"Illegals"? What about the principle "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law"? Oh, yeah, that's American jurisprudence, not Scripture. But the illegality of crossing a particular line in a desert is a matter of American jurisprudence, too, and while I think our current president would have a higher opinion than I of several of the Caesars if the latter were still running countries, the United States' jurisprudence is not "Caesar". If you will look back at our primordial founding document, the Declaration of Independence, you will see that the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are not propounded as rights of the citizens of the thirteen colonies involved in that illegal behavior, but as rights of "all men" (a term now extended to women), with which they have been endowed by "their Creator". When "Caesar" tells me I must not follow Christ, it is my Christian duty to tell Caesar that much as I would like to, I'm obligated to disobey.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Haruo » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:56 am

Without accusing anyone here or in the United States government of "Nazism" or comparing anybody to "Hitler", I have to ask whether anyone here thinks that Christians in the Third Reich or territories occupied by that version of "Caesar" were (according to Jesus) properly to be lambasted as "do-gooders" when they sought to conceal Jews from the authorities at a time when the authorities had decided that "Jews on the loose" were illegal, and should they have been incarcerated and, if necessary under Caesar's laws, executed for those actions? When giving hope to those whom Caesar has deprived of hope is labeled criminal, I hope to be so labeled myself. Jesus himself was crucified to death for a "politically motivated" crime (look at the Scriptures; what he was killed for was basically what is now called "crossing state lines with the intent to incite riot". Not that that was what he was doing, far from it, but that was "Caesar's" take on it.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12589
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

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