Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Haruo » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:10 am

And further, as a Christian citizen of a representative democracy, I see it as my Christian duty to seek where and as I can to encourage "Caesar" to behave more like Christ itself. Scripture doesn't have as much to say, that I can see anyway, about the proper behavior of Christians (or Jews) as citizens of representative democracies than it has about despotisms and monarchies, but we all still have to work that part of duty out with, perhaps, a bit of fear and trembling. This certainly applies currently in the areas of immigration policies and treatment of unauthorized migrants, in the laws concerning abortion and other reproductive issues, and in sexual and gender issues, as well as in the United States' behavior vis-à-vis other countries including Afghanistan, Venezuela, Iran, Israel, Congo, Gabon, Syria, Russia, China, North Korea, and Honduras. The issues are complex, there are competing factors, and there is no way I can see to impose a positive outcome in most of them, but still our individual Christianity must, I think, be paramount in deciding what to try to get our government to do.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby KeithE » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:14 am

Haruo wrote:And further, as a Christian citizen of a representative democracy, I see it as my Christian duty to seek where and as I can to encourage "Caesar" to behave more like Christ itself. Scripture doesn't have as much to say, that I can see anyway, about the proper behavior of Christians (or Jews) as citizens of representative democracies as it has about despotisms and monarchies, but we all still have to work that part of duty out with, perhaps, a bit of fear and trembling. This certainly applies currently in the areas of immigration policies and treatment of unauthorized migrants, in the laws concerning abortion and other reproductive issues, and in sexual and gender issues, as well as in the United States' behavior vis-à-vis other countries including Afghanistan, Venezuela, Iran, Israel, Congo, Gabon, Syria, Russia, China, North Korea, and Honduras. The issues are complex, there are competing factors, and there is no way I can see to impose a positive outcome in most of them, but still our individual Christianity must, I think, be paramount in deciding what to try to get our government to do.

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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby JE Pettibone » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:30 pm

Ed: Hauro you as well as any one knows that words have different meanings. So tell me how dogooder is a pejorative when in the same context writer or speaker acknowledges that those so identified believe they are doing good but she or he disagrees. My point is that those who break the law, risk being being arrested, and are endangering the lives of those they would seek to help.

Knowing you as I do I have to say you are probably the only person here who upon waking in the middle of the night and find some people unknown to you, in your living room, would possibly put on the coffe pot and put bread in toaster as well as whiping up a platter of scrambled eggs and bacon. However that gives you no right to insist that your neighbors must do likewise, ratter than calling the police, yet I wonder how many nights in a row you would do so.

do-gooder | Definition of do-gooder in English by Oxford ...
en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/do-gooder

Definition of do-gooder - a well-meaning but unrealistic or interfering philanthropist or reformer.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Haruo » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:39 pm

Just so I'm being transparent, if not entirely clear... I do generally lock my front door at night (and during the day if I am not going in and out frequently). I often lock the back door, too. The garage door is almost always locked. The shed is never locked (has no lock) nor the laundry room.

I assume that most people who attempt to enter the country at that sort of point are rather desperate to get in. If somebody rushes onto my front porch and screams frantically "Let me in! Let me in!" I am very likely to both, as simultaneously as I can, let them in and call 911. I will never advocate for the incarceration of someone whose crime consists of offering water to people dying of thirst, at the domestic or the national level. And I truly don't think Jesus would either.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Sandy » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:20 am

JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: Hauro you as well as any one knows that words have different meanings. So tell me how dogooder is a pejorative when in the same context writer or speaker acknowledges that those so identified believe they are doing good but she or he disagrees. My point is that those who break the law, risk being being arrested, and are endangering the lives of those they would seek to help.

Knowing you as I do I have to say you are probably the only person here who upon waking in the middle of the night and find some people unknown to you, in your living room, would possibly put on the coffe pot and put bread in toaster as well as whiping up a platter of scrambled eggs and bacon. However that gives you no right to insist that your neighbors must do likewise, ratter than calling the police, yet I wonder how many nights in a row you would do so.

do-gooder | Definition of do-gooder in English by Oxford ...
en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/do-gooder

Definition of do-gooder - a well-meaning but unrealistic or interfering philanthropist or reformer.


The comparison of people coming into the US illegally to waking up and finding someone in your living room is not a valid comparison to this situation. Your house is individually owned and unless you live in a place where there are lots of deed restrictions, you can pretty much do what you want with it. The country is not individually owned, there are varied opinions about how to handle these sorts of things, especially in regard to the way we've laid our history out for all to see and chest-thumped about being a refuge for the oppressed and a land of opportunity.

Let's make the analogy at least somewhat realistic and related to the situation. It's -10 below outside, and some homeless people, no blankets or coats, threadbare clothing, who have had nothing to eat for a week come down the street, try a few doors and find yours unlocked, so they come inside to keep from freezing to death. You find them huddled in the middle of your living room floor, too weak to do much.

That's not really an accurate analogy, but it makes the point. A lot of people who claim to be Christians and who insist on believing in a literal interpretation of an inerrant, infallible Bible have allowed politics to cloud their perspective so much that they are willing to lay down solid Biblical principles in favor of support for a political position that is based on the lies and distortions of a corrupt politician. It makes all of the old hype and rhetoric about the sanctity of life that is once again being dragged out to attempt to stop the bleeding of religious right voters away from their orange headed god look like the blatant hypocrisy that it is.

What's even more tragic about this whole situation is that most of the problems in Central America and Mexico that are causing the upheaval and pushing people north to the border have been caused by the interference and involvement of the United States, mostly during the Bush administration at the instigation of John Bolton.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby JE Pettibone » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:39 pm

Sandy wrote:
JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: Hauro you as well as any one knows that words have different meanings. So tell me how dogooder is a pejorative when in the same context writer or speaker acknowledges that those so identified believe they are doing good but she or he disagrees. My point is that those who break the law, risk being being arrested, and are endangering the lives of those they would seek to help.

Knowing you as I do I have to say you are probably the only person here who upon waking in the middle of the night and find some people unknown to you, in your living room, would possibly put on the coffee pot and put bread in toaster as well as whipping up a platter of scrambled eggs and bacon. However that gives you no right to insist that your neighbors must do likewise, ratter than calling the police, yet I wonder how many nights in a row you would do so.

do-gooder | Definition of do-gooder in English by Oxford ...
en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/do-gooder

Definition of do-gooder - a well-meaning but unrealistic or interfering philanthropist or reformer.


Sandy:
The comparison of people coming into the US illegally to waking up and finding someone in your living room is not a valid comparison to this situation. Your house is individually owned and unless you live in a place where there are lots of deed restrictions, you can pretty much do what you want with it. The country is not individually owned, there are varied opinions about how to handle these sorts of things, especially in regard to the way we've laid our history out for all to see and chest-thumped about being a refuge for the oppressed and a land of opportunity.

Let's make the analogy at least somewhat realistic and related to the situation. It's -10 below outside, and some homeless people, no blankets or coats, threadbare clothing, who have had nothing to eat for a week come down the street, try a few doors and find yours unlocked, so they come inside to keep from freezing to death. You find them huddled in the middle of your living room floor, too weak to do much.
That's not really an accurate analogy, but it makes the point. A lot of people who claim to be Christians and who insist on believing in a literal interpretation of an inerrant, infallible Bible have allowed politics to cloud their perspective so much that they are willing to lay down solid Biblical principles in favor of support for a political position that is based on the lies and distortions of a corrupt politician.


Sandy, what point do you think your analogy makes ? BTW, My obviously hypothetical comment re; Hauro is valid, it is a concession on my part that some rare liberals do practice what they preach. I am glad to see that you acknowledge that the caravan participants coming across our southern borders at places other than ports of entry are breaking our laws.

When you say " A lot of people who claim to be Christians and who insist on believing in a literal interpretation of an inerrant, infallible Bible have allowed politics to cloud their perspective so much that they are willing to lay down solid Biblical principles in favor of support for a political position that is based on the lies and distortions of a corrupt politician" I am sure you believe it but I believe it is a figment of your imagination but then I have almost no contact with the people "who claim to be Christians and who insist on believing in a literal interpretation of an inerrant, infallible Bible ..." in the past 20 years.

I know you have seen below zero temps even before your recent move to Chicago but where have you ever seen groups of homeless people going door to door trying doors? In my several years living in Indiana and Ohio plus Upstate NY, even in Lousville,Ky I have never seen it
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Sandy » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:01 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:Sandy, what point do you think your analogy makes ? BTW, My obviously hypothetical comment re; Hauro is valid, it is a concession on my part that some rare liberals do practice what they preach. I am glad to see that you acknowledge that the caravan participants coming across our southern borders at places other than ports of entry are breaking our laws.


The point is that the people who are coming across our southern border are desperate to save themselves and are willing to risk whatever they might face in order to do so. No comparison between the United States as a nation and someone's own home is legitimate in this regard, because the country is a republic, and not all Americans, not anywhere close to a majority, are in favor of turning away refugees, or at least, they are not against keeping them from dying of thirst in the desert.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby JE Pettibone » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:28 pm

Sandy wrote:
JE Pettibone wrote:Sandy, what point do you think your analogy makes ? BTW, My obviously hypothetical comment re; Hauro is valid, it is a concession on my part that some rare liberals do practice what they preach. I am glad to see that you acknowledge that the caravan participants coming across our southern borders at places other than ports of entry are breaking our laws.


The point is that the people who are coming across our southern border are desperate to save themselves and are willing to risk whatever they might face in order to do so. No comparison between the United States as a nation and someone's own home is legitimate in this regard, because the country is a republic, and not all Americans, not anywhere close to a majority, are in favor of turning away refugees, or at least, they are not against keeping them from dying of thirst in the desert.


ED: So Sandy what is the difference in some one who is desperate and enters the US illegally and some on who is desperate and enters your home illegally?

I think it is that you do not feel the effect of the illegal migration as directly as you would the invasion of your home. I have avoided using my self in this question because I live in a gated community and our home owners association pays for a night security patrol yet we lock our doors. Not even Jesus fed all of the hungry around him nor did he heal all the sick and infirm.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Sandy » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:27 pm

As I said, there's not really a legitimate comparison here. The country is not a personal dwelling and those who are seeking asylum here, or a better life, are not "home invaders" nor anything close to that.

Some laws are unjust and need to be changed, and this is one of them.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby KeithE » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:26 am

Sandy wrote:As I said, there's not really a legitimate comparison here. The country is not a personal dwelling and those who are seeking asylum here, or a better life, are not "home invaders" nor anything close to that.

Some laws are unjust and need to be changed, and this is one of them.


Amen but how specifically would you say the immigration laws should be changed? I'll start a new topic.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby JE Pettibone » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:12 pm

KeithE wrote:
Sandy wrote:As I said, there's not really a legitimate comparison here. The country is not a personal dwelling and those who are seeking asylum here, or a better life, are not "home invaders" nor anything close to that.

Some laws are unjust and need to be changed, and this is one of them.


Amen but how specifically would you say the immigration laws should be changed? I'll start a new topic.


Ed: Good luck in getting specifics from Sandy.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby KeithE » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:02 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:
KeithE wrote:
Sandy wrote:As I said, there's not really a legitimate comparison here. The country is not a personal dwelling and those who are seeking asylum here, or a better life, are not "home invaders" nor anything close to that.

Some laws are unjust and need to be changed, and this is one of them.


Amen but how specifically would you say the immigration laws should be changed? I'll start a new topic.


Ed: Good luck in getting specifics from Sandy.

Not getting very much from you (or anyone) - See new topic “Immigration Law Changes”.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Rvaughn » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:10 am

Sandy wrote:...the country is a republic, and not all Americans, not anywhere close to a majority, are in favor of turning away refugees, or at least, they are not against keeping them from dying of thirst in the desert.
Since the country is a republic, the republic cannot respond to what the polled majority is against or not against, but must respond to immigration according the laws made by those elected by the majority. Unfortunately it seems to me that many of those elected are more interested in their talking points than "reaching across the aisle" to work a solutions that best fit the current times.
KeithE wrote:Not getting very much from you (or anyone) - See new topic “Immigration Law Changes”.
I made a few comments there. Not a lot of details, but agreed with some of the points you made.
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