Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

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Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby KeithE » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:58 pm

In Arizona, Possible Prison Time for Leaving Food and Water for Migrants.

Not only does Trumpism ignore providing humanitarian aid, they punish those that do.

Makes me wonder what the $800M in Trump’s proposal for “humanitarian aid” will actually be used for.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby William Thornton » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:32 am

I play a game with Keith's links by guessing which are links to commondreams.

So far, I'm batting 1.000. Totally predictable.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:37 am

This is clearly religious persecution for the practice of their faith. The group doing this is faith based. If you want to protect religious freedom to practice all faiths, then its time to protect these Christians.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby William Thornton » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:35 am

Dave Roberts wrote:This is clearly religious persecution for the practice of their faith. The group doing this is faith based. If you want to protect religious freedom to practice all faiths, then its time to protect these Christians.


This is a nonsense comment. Abortion opponents, many if not most being faith based, are known to break the law. You'll march to protect that group, I suppose?

Non story but convenient to show a bunch of young, white kids doing stuff and getting prosecuted for breaking the law.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby KeithE » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:39 am

William Thornton wrote:I play a game with Keith's links by guessing which are links to commondreams.

So far, I'm batting 1.000. Totally predictable.

Huh??

Just looked at my last “links” in the last 10 threads on the PP&P Forum. There were 25 links provided to "back up" my thoughts. Only 2 times were the links from Common Dreams. That is a 0.08 (2/25) average, no place near “1.000”. (btw a batting average of all hits is usually expressed as “1000” - just a quibble).

William is a prime example of the post-truth society. Just spout off what your emotions are saying - often spectacularly wrong.

Looking at the 25 links I made, they are from a total of 17 sources. USA Today was linked the most often - 3 times.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby KeithE » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:17 am

William Thornton wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:This is clearly religious persecution for the practice of their faith. The group doing this is faith based. If you want to protect religious freedom to practice all faiths, then its time to protect these Christians.


This is a nonsense comment. Abortion opponents, many if not most being faith based, are known to break the law. You'll march to protect that group, I suppose?

Non story but convenient to show a bunch of young, white kids doing stuff and getting prosecuted for breaking the law.


“Nonsense" to you, William, perhaps because (for whatever reason) it is discordant to your ihatemigrants mindset. Migrants looking for a better life deserve food and water. These faith-based “lawbreakers” should be praised not imprisoned for providing that. And the law should be changed/clarified.

Question- if some of the $800M “humanitarian aid” in the Trump “proposal” is used to give food and water to migrants, will that be against the law?
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby William Thornton » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:19 am

I read a headline/link. Commondreams' titles are totally predictable.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby KeithE » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:07 am

William Thornton wrote:I read a headline/link. Commondreams' titles are totally predictable.

That is not what you said was “predictable”. Read it again:

I play a game with Keith's links by guessing which are links to commondreams.

So far, I'm batting 1.000. Totally predictable.


Nice try.

Face it, it was a sloppy slam at my objectivity and you should apologize.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:48 am

A pastor friend of mine dealt with this issue in his own city. He was feeding the homeless and got crossways with the city because it allowed people to see how many homeless people the community had.

Given Jesus' commandment related to "doing unto the least of these" the only option Christians have here is to obey God rather than men.

William, an argument can be made for protesting abortions but there is hardly clearer commandments from Christ himself than the expectation that we feed the poor and needy.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby William Thornton » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:34 am

Try for some comprehension here, Keith. I check your linkfests and can pick the cd ones by the headline.

You're not objective, not that any requirement here says that you must be, and I owe no one an apology.

No big deal here.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby William Thornton » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:36 am

Dave made a free exercise argument out of this. Nonsense,
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:41 am

William Thornton wrote:Dave made a free exercise argument out of this. Nonsense,


It isn't nonsense. It makes total sense. Feeding the needy is a gospel imperative. If the government criminalizes one of the bedrock tenets of the gospel that it sure as heck becomes a "free exercise" issue. Or did Baptists in your part of the world stop believing in religious freedom?
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:47 am

OK, is it God's word or isn't it?

Matthews 25:44-36

44Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” 45Then he will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’


Because if THIS isn't a clear demand of Jesus Christ in the gospel of God's people then conservatives have jumped the shark and turned into Bible liberals not believing in the very words of Jesus himself.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Sandy » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:35 pm

William Thornton wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:This is clearly religious persecution for the practice of their faith. The group doing this is faith based. If you want to protect religious freedom to practice all faiths, then its time to protect these Christians.


This is a nonsense comment. Abortion opponents, many if not most being faith based, are known to break the law. You'll march to protect that group, I suppose?

Non story but convenient to show a bunch of young, white kids doing stuff and getting prosecuted for breaking the law.


I'm not aware of any scripture or Christian practice that says it is "religious practice" to bomb buildings or sabotage the personal property of those who work in abortion clinics, or protest and throw rocks at those entering them. That's an apples to oranges comparison to acts of compassion. Well, leave it up to Trump and his supporters to turn the Christian faith apostate and make it a crime to provide food and water for the hungry and thirsty.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby KeithE » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:39 pm

William Thornton wrote:Try for some comprehension here, Keith. I check your linkfests and can pick the cd ones by the headline.

You're not objective, not that any requirement here says that you must be, and I owe no one an apology.

No big deal here.


On to the weightier matters of the law as Dave and Timothy and Sandy are writing about.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:47 pm

Sandy wrote:
I'm not aware of any scripture or Christian practice that says it is "religious practice" to bomb buildings or sabotage the personal property of those who work in abortion clinics, or protest and throw rocks at those entering them. That's an apples to oranges comparison to acts of compassion. Well, leave it up to Trump and his supporters to turn the Christian faith apostate and make it a crime to provide food and water for the hungry and thirsty.


Agreed. Nor do I honestly find a particular Biblical mandate to march around with placards, as far as that goes. But I find scriptural demands (not suggestions) that we take care of the needy. It isn't optional. Protest marches, totally optional.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Haruo » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:52 pm

The Biblical mandate is to march around with placards etc. until the Walls come a-tumblin' down. Joshua 6:20
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:55 pm

Haruo wrote:The Biblical mandate is to march around with placards etc. until the Walls come a-tumblin' down. Joshua 6:20


LOL, Well I think it was trumpets and not placards.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Haruo » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:18 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:A pastor friend of mine dealt with this issue in his own city. He was feeding the homeless and got crossways with the city because it allowed people to see how many homeless people the community had.

Given Jesus' commandment related to "doing unto the least of these" the only option Christians have here is to obey God rather than men.

William, an argument can be made for protesting abortions but there is hardly clearer commandments from Christ himself than the expectation that we feed the poor and needy.

Fetuses are arguably among the "least of these". Or not. But if you believe they are, then the Christian duty is no less manifest than in respect to migrants. Neither issue is 100% clear to my exegetical mind, but I think the case for feeding the migrants is closer to open-and-shut. Obviously others differ. I generally try to choose a willingness to believe in their misguided and in effect evil sincerity, but as a Christian citizen I see a duty to oppose such laws and ordinances, and as a Christian and a moral human being a duty to feed the starving where I can. Where would King David and the whole Messianic system leading to Jesus be if Ruth had been deported, and Boaz fined for feeding her, before she could get pregnant?
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:48 pm

Haruo wrote:Fetuses are arguably among the "least of these". Or not. But if you believe they are, then the Christian duty is no less manifest than in respect to migrants.


Haruo, I'm not suggesting that someone who who is against abortion shouldn't protest it. (Though not violently of course) I'm just amazed that we can take a modern issue, like abortion, and draw lines back to the Bible but can't seem to connect the dots to something so obvious as giving food and water to the poor, legal or not.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Sandy » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:11 pm

To make this a valid comparison, support for the unborn coming from the Christian community would include help with real struggles for the mothers of the unborn prior to their birth, whether it is counseling to help with the issues that caused the mother to think about abortion as an option to financial support, perhaps a job, housing assistance, food and pre-natal medical care, assistance to help with expenses and legal navigation for adoption if that is an option, or even help finding a job for the mom. That would go a lot further than some screaming, slanted, one sided political rally and a march through the streets of Washington. Now make those things illegal and you have a legitimate comparison here.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:31 am

The whole issue of civil disobedience needs to be revisited. I heard this argument often in the late 1950's and early 1960's that it was critical to obey the laws and lawbreakers should go to jail. Most of the arguments were made in the effort to thwart the civil rights movement, and many of our leading Baptist pastors were at the forefront of the "legalist argument." The application has shifted to immigrants breaking the law, but it seems we are often the descendants of our "legalist forebears." Of course, in Virginia, Baptists were the extreme lawbreakers who had to preach "illegally" through jail bars because they refused to support a state church. I prefer being a descendent of those lawbreakers.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Haruo » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:34 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
Haruo wrote:The Biblical mandate is to march around with placards etc. until the Walls come a-tumblin' down. Joshua 6:20


LOL, Well I think it was trumpets and not placards.

Yes, well, placards for some, trumpets for others. The trumpets were covered under my "etc."
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:35 am

The actions of the group, which is supported by the Unitarian/Universalist Church, are straight out of MLK's procedures to get arrested in the hope of awakening the consciences of religious people. Our memories are short. These people are deliberately risking arrest as an act of religious conscience.
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Re: Jail/Fine for Supplying Water/Food

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:50 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:The actions of the group, which is supported by the Unitarian/Universalist Church, are straight out of MLK's procedures to get arrested in the hope of awakening the consciences of religious people. Our memories are short. These people are deliberately risking arrest as an act of religious conscience.



Ed: Dave, I am late getting into this discussion, started reading somewhere in the middle of the thread. What is the group you refer to, clicking the link in Keith's first post only leads to a blank page.
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