Democrats all supported the wall?

The place to discuss politics and policy issues that are not directly related to matters of faith.

Moderator: Jon Estes

Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Haruo » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:02 pm

So, while he was in Iraq, apparently addressing an audience of service personnel, I heard the President say something to the effect that "The Democrats were all, every one of them, in favor of building the wall, they all agreed we needed a wall, until they found out I was in favor of it." What sort of Democratic support for what sort of wall, when and where, was he alluding to, or did he just make the whole notion up out of whole cloth on the spur of the moment?
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12498
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:22 pm

Not made up out of whole cloth, but not completely accurate either. Democrats did support and vote for the Secure Fence Act of 2006, the text of which can be found HERE. The first link should tell you who voted for it, but right now it says the site is down for maintenance.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1050
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Jon Estes » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:48 am

Rvaughn wrote:Not made up out of whole cloth, but not completely accurate either. Democrats did support and vote for the Secure Fence Act of 2006, the text of which can be found HERE. The first link should tell you who voted for it, but right now it says the site is down for maintenance.


HERE IS THE LIST
YEAs80
NAYs19
Not Voting1

Akaka (D-HI), Nay
Alexander (R-TN), Yea
Allard (R-CO), Yea
Allen (R-VA), Yea
Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Bennett (R-UT), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Yea
Bingaman (D-NM), Nay
Bond (R-MO), Yea
Boxer (D-CA), Yea
Brownback (R-KS), Yea
Bunning (R-KY), Yea
Burns (R-MT), Yea
Burr (R-NC), Yea
Byrd (D-WV), Yea
Cantwell (D-WA), Nay
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Chafee (R-RI), Nay
Chambliss (R-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Yea
Coburn (R-OK), Yea
Cochran (R-MS), Yea
Coleman (R-MN), Yea
Collins (R-ME), Yea
Conrad (D-ND), Yea
Cornyn (R-TX), Yea
Craig (R-ID), Yea
Crapo (R-ID), Yea
Dayton (D-MN), Yea
DeMint (R-SC), Yea
DeWine (R-OH), Yea
Dodd (D-CT), Yea
Dole (R-NC), Yea
Domenici (R-NM), Yea
Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
Durbin (D-IL), Nay
Ensign (R-NV), Yea
Enzi (R-WY), Yea
Feingold (D-WI), Nay
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Frist (R-TN), Yea
Graham (R-SC), Yea
Grassley (R-IA), Yea
Gregg (R-NH), Yea
Hagel (R-NE), Yea
Harkin (D-IA), Yea
Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
Inouye (D-HI), Nay
Isakson (R-GA), Yea
Jeffords (I-VT), Nay
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kennedy (D-MA), Not Voting
Kerry (D-MA), Nay
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Lautenberg (D-NJ), Nay
Leahy (D-VT), Nay
Levin (D-MI), Nay
Lieberman (D-CT), Nay
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Lott (R-MS), Yea
Lugar (R-IN), Yea
Martinez (R-FL), Yea
McCain (R-AZ), Yea
McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Menendez (D-NJ), Nay
Mikulski (D-MD), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Yea
Murray (D-WA), Nay
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Obama (D-IL), Yea
Pryor (D-AR), Yea
Reed (D-RI), Nay
Reid (D-NV), Nay
Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Salazar (D-CO), Nay
Santorum (R-PA), Yea
Sarbanes (D-MD), Nay
Schumer (D-NY), Yea
Sessions (R-AL), Yea
Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Smith (R-OR), Yea
Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Specter (R-PA), Yea
Stabenow (D-MI), Yea
Stevens (R-AK), Yea
Sununu (R-NH), Yea
Talent (R-MO), Yea
Thomas (R-WY), Yea
Thune (R-SD), Yea
Vitter (R-LA), Yea
Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Warner (R-VA), Yea
Wyden (D-OR), Yea
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:14 am

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby KeithE » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:42 am

Not sure the Secure Fence Act of 2006 was what Trump had in mind. But if that was it, he certainly lied about how many Democrats were against it (18 were against it and 1 Republican) Thanks Jon!

Also reading the Act itself, it only called for Fencing (not a Wall) and only extended 5-15 miles East and West from 5 port of entries.

Trump usually exaggerates (often massively) any number when it is a political hot point.

Now Trump may have had mind the offer Schumer temporarily made of $25M for a southern wall in exchange for freedom for the Dreamers in the Jan 2018 shutdown battle. No one even voted on that idea suggestion.
Schumer Recinds $25M Offer for Wall
But in Trump’s mind he may think a temporary offer from Schumer means :
The Democrats were all, every one of them, in favor of building the wall, they all agreed we needed a wall, until they found out I was in favor of it.


Trump also told the troops that he has given them their only raise in ten years. Trump misleads about military pay raises again.
Image

With inflation included look at plot in https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/12/trump-lies-to-troops-faces-about-pay-raise-he-gave-them/. Too large to post here easily.
For the record, the 2017 pay increase (for 2018) was 2.4 percent. The 2018 increase (for 2019) was 2.6 percent. Adjusted for inflation, they’re both pretty close to zero.


Yes inflation is happening again since Trump has been in office. Inflation rate history. That (among many other indicators) is why the Fed is increasing rates.

Back to Lying Trump:
The President is full into the Post-truth era, which means if you want something to be true, it must be. His justification is “People Believe me"

Just a reminder: As of Nov 2018 Trump has lied 6240 times publicly and it is accelerating.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9024
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Jon Estes » Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:07 pm

KeithE wrote:Not sure the Secure Fence Act of 2006 was what Trump had in mind. But if that was it, he certainly lied about how many Democrats were against it (18 were against it and 1 Republican) Thanks Jon!

Also reading the Act itself, it only called for Fencing (not a Wall) and only extended 5-15 miles East and West from 5 port of entries.

Trump usually exaggerates (often massively) any number when it is a political hot point.

Now Trump may have had mind the offer Schumer temporarily made of $25M for a southern wall in exchange for freedom for the Dreamers in the Jan 2018 shutdown battle. No one even voted on that idea suggestion.
Schumer Recinds $25M Offer for Wall
But in Trump’s mind he may think a temporary offer from Schumer means :
The Democrats were all, every one of them, in favor of building the wall, they all agreed we needed a wall, until they found out I was in favor of it.


Trump also told the troops that he has given them their only raise in ten years. Trump misleads about military pay raises again.
Image

With inflation included look at plot in https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/12/trump-lies-to-troops-faces-about-pay-raise-he-gave-them/. Too large to post here easily.
For the record, the 2017 pay increase (for 2018) was 2.4 percent. The 2018 increase (for 2019) was 2.6 percent. Adjusted for inflation, they’re both pretty close to zero.


Yes inflation is happening again since Trump has been in office. Inflation rate history. That (among many other indicators) is why the Fed is increasing rates.

Back to Lying Trump:
The President is full into the Post-truth era, which means if you want something to be true, it must be. His justification is “People Believe me"

Just a reminder: As of Nov 2018 Trump has lied 6240 times publicly and it is accelerating.


So which politician do you support that has not told a lie? Intentional or not.

If you wAnt to make that a standard for not being allowed to serve or trust... I am not sure who you could nominate.

If it a certain number of lies that must be said before being guilty of lying, please tell me that number.

Can you name a President in your lifetime that has never lied? We

Tell me one and if they are on the ballot next time, I’ll vote for them.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:14 am

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Haruo » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:28 pm

KeithE wrote:Not sure the Secure Fence Act of 2006 was what Trump had in mind. But if that was it, he certainly lied about how many Democrats were against it (18 were against it and 1 Republican) Thanks Jon!


Thanks, indeed, Jon. Technically 17 Democrats, since Leahy was from Vermont. ;-) [Belated correction: it was Jefford, not Leahy, who vas the Independent from Vermont. The Green Mountain Boys seem to tend towards the nonpartisan Left.

KeithE wrote:But in Trump’s mind he may think a temporary offer from Schumer means :
The Democrats were all, every one of them, in favor of building the wall, they all agreed we needed a wall, until they found out I was in favor of it.


Bear in mind, that is not a quotation from Trump's mind, but rather my hours-later-from-memory reconstruction of roughly what he said as I recalled it. I'd love to see a transcript of the actual utterance or a YouTube so I could make my own.

KeithE wrote:Back to Lying Trump:
The President is full into the Post-truth era, which means if you want something to be true, it must be.

I'm not sure he even bothers with wanting it, he flipflops so gracefully from tweet to tweet.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12498
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Sandy » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:06 pm

The promise was "We are going to build a wall and Mexico will pay for it." Not happening. Mexico isn't paying for it. So the orange hair can't deliver on one of his most often cited promises. That's been the story of his presidency so far.

But on this issue, the trump lies go all the way back to the beginning, when he started talking about the need for border security. None of his perceptions are the reality. The Democrats not only favored increased border security, but they brought it about during the Obama administration. A combination of beefed -up border patrol, looking in the places where illegal workers were working, enforcing employment documentation policies, and deporting those who were here illegally. And there is a major difference between illegals coming across the border to work, and refugees coming across the border claiming political assylum. Trump's obvious prejudice against Latinos causes him to confuse the two separate issues.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9156
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:12 pm

KeithE wrote:Not sure the Secure Fence Act of 2006 was what Trump had in mind. But if that was it, he certainly lied about how many Democrats were against it (18 were against it and 1 Republican) Thanks Jon!
Sans context in the address, I can't say for sure he meant the Secure Fence Act of 2006, but there is context otherwise. I have heard this cited several times recently as evidence that Schumer, Obama, Clinton were for this concept and that Democrats have changed their tune on border security. IIRC, one who said this was someone is Trump's cabinet.
KeithE wrote:Also reading the Act itself, it only called for Fencing (not a Wall)...
Fencing, true, but also called "physical infrastructure enhancements to prevent unlawful entry by aliens into the United States..." -- so much in common in spirit with the wall idea, right?
KeithE wrote:Also reading the Act itself, it only called for Fencing (not a Wall) and only extended 5-15 miles East and West from 5 port of entries.
Not exactly, unless this was changed later. From the text of Public Law 109–367 (Secure Fence Act of 2006):
  • 10 miles west and east of the Tecate, California, so 20 miles there.
  • 10 miles west of the Calexico, California, to 5 miles east of the Douglas, Arizona -- don't know, maybe 300 or 400 miles down the border?
  • 5 miles west of the Columbus, New Mexico, to 10 miles east of El Paso, Texas -- again don't know, probably 80 miles or so
  • 5 miles northwest of the Del Rio, Texas, to 5 miles southeast of the Eagle Pass, Texas -- about 60 miles
  • 15 miles northwest of the Laredo, Texas, to the Brownsville, Texas port of entry -- possibly 200 miles
So altogether it looks like the 80 "yeas" (D & R) voted to fund roughly 700 miles of border security fencing.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1050
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Haruo » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:53 am

My senators were both Nays. But yes, it certainly seems forgetful of lots of Democrats to take the approach they currently are on the Wall. But then, Clinton and Obama are certainly Johnny-come-latelies to their current position. Haven't followed Schumer enough to know, but I'd be surprised if he differed from them much.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12498
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Haruo » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:56 am

It does seem clear that what I heard Trump tell the troops was an exaggeration, but not the absurdity I thought it was.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12498
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby KeithE » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:06 am

Keith’s responses in this color.
Rvaughn wrote:
KeithE wrote:Not sure the Secure Fence Act of 2006 was what Trump had in mind. But if that was it, he certainly lied about how many Democrats were against it (18 were against it and 1 Republican) Thanks Jon!
Sans context in the address, I can't say for sure he meant the Secure Fence Act of 2006, but there is context otherwise. I have heard this cited several times recently as evidence that Schumer, Obama, Clinton were for this concept and that Democrats have changed their tune on border security. IIRC, one who said this was someone is Trump's cabinet.
OK, but who/what is “IIRC”? It does appear that Schumer and HRC voted for this Act and Obama signed it. But this Act is not nearly as severe as what Trump currently wants.

KeithE wrote:Also reading the Act itself, it only called for Fencing (not a Wall)...
Fencing, true, but also called "physical infrastructure enhancements to prevent unlawful entry by aliens into the United States..." -- so much in common in spirit with the wall idea, right?
Much (not all) of the current argument between Dems and Trump is the nature of that “Wall” and it’s extent. Dems rightfully say the high physical Wall over the whole Southern Border that Trump has usually demanded is too costly (estimates range from $21.6B to $70B not including land acquisition) and ineffective in “prevent(ing) unlawful entry by aliens into the United States” - one can dig under, bore a hole or use explosives to penetrate. Dems are (for the most part) wanting border entry control and policing and want what the experts say and border agents say are proven border control measures, namely more agents, surveillance, canine sniffers, and patrol boats. I’m sure there are a few that want what Trump claims 'Dems, everyone of them, want open borders'; but not many. The manner of border control and its humanity is what is at issue.

No Trump’s answer for border security is not in the “spirit” of the construction experts, the border agents, or common sense. It is in the “spirit” of RW xenophobic politics that his rhetoric preyed on. He would do far better for himself politically if he asked for $5M of additional to-be-specified border security/humanitarian aid at the border/economic aid for the Northern Triangle. It might even end this partial shutdown.


KeithE wrote:Also reading the Act itself, it only called for Fencing (not a Wall) and only extended 5-15 miles East and West from 5 port of entries.

Not exactly, unless this was changed later. From the text of Public Law 109–367 (Secure Fence Act of 2006):
  • 10 miles west and east of the Tecate, California, so 20 miles there.
  • 10 miles west of the Calexico, California, to 5 miles east of the Douglas, Arizona -- don't know, maybe 300 or 400 miles down the border?
  • 5 miles west of the Columbus, New Mexico, to 10 miles east of El Paso, Texas -- again don't know, probably 80 miles or so
  • 5 miles northwest of the Del Rio, Texas, to 5 miles southeast of the Eagle Pass, Texas -- about 60 miles
  • 15 miles northwest of the Laredo, Texas, to the Brownsville, Texas port of entry -- possibly 200 miles
So altogether it looks like the 80 "yeas" (D & R) voted to fund roughly 700 miles of border security fencing.

OK, but that is a far cry from what Trump has said about the Secure Fence Act of 2006 (if you are right) in Haruo faithful paraphrase in original post:
"The Democrats were all, every one of them, in favor of building the wall, they all agreed we needed a wall, until they found out I was in favor of it."


BTW, the total Mexico/US border is 1984 miles, 30 of which is over water. In 2007 DHS complained that differing terrain called for different means and the act was amended. Read this - it tells the story of the lack of implementation of this Act including a lie told by Obama at a rally.


Sorry for the late additions - I was called away to drive my grandson home. I heard on my way back that Trump is now demanding only $2.5B but still that Wall (at best funding 1/10th of that Wall from Ocean to Gulf).
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9024
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Haruo » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:56 pm

IIRC is abbreviated internet jargon for "If I Recall Correctly. FWIW ;-)
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12498
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby KeithE » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:05 pm

Haruo wrote:IIRC is abbreviated internet jargon for "If I Recall Correctly. FWIW ;-)

What is FWIW? ;-)
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9024
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:26 pm

KeithE wrote:OK, but who/what is “IIRC”? It does appear that Schumer and HRC voted for this Act and Obama signed it. But this Act is not nearly as severe as what Trump currently wants.
IIRC stands for "If I Remember Correctly." No, on the other -- Schumer, Hillary Clinton, and Barack Obama voted for this Act and George Bush signed it.
KeithE wrote:Much (not all) of the current argument between Dems and Trump is the nature of that “Wall” and it’s extent. Dems rightfully say the high physical Wall over the whole Southern Border that Trump has usually demanded is too costly...
To me its seems that much of the argument between Dems and Reps is and has been political posturing. They all for years talk about immigration reform and when they have had the opportunity to do something (owning House, Senate, Pres) they have not done it. So that makes me think of plying for votes as opposed to true fealty to what they claim.
KeithE wrote:No Trump’s answer for border security is not in the “spirit” of the construction experts, the border agents, or common sense. It is in the “spirit” of RW xenophobic politics that his rhetoric preyed on. He would do far better for himself politically if he asked for $5M of additional to-be-specified border security/humanitarian aid at the border/economic aid for the Northern Triangle. It might even end this partial shutdown.
The "spirit" I am talking about is not Trump's, neither anything to do with him, but rather the elements that "wall" and "fence" share in common as "physical infrastructure enhancements to prevent unlawful entry by aliens into the United States."
KeithE wrote:OK, but that is a far cry from what Trump has said about the Secure Fence Act of 2006 (if you are right) in Haruo faithful paraphrase in original post:
And a far cry from the "fifteen miles" you posited, too. :-)
KeithE wrote:BTW, the total Mexico/US border is 1984 miles, 30 of which is over water. In 2007 DHS complained that differing terrain called for different means and the act was amended. Read this - it tells the story of the lack of implementation of this Act including a lie told by Obama at a rally.
How much of the fence they have finished or not finished doesn't change the fact that 80 senators voted for it. So those 80 must have thought it was a good idea at the time (or maybe they thought it would look good for when they campaigned for reelection). As far as the 2007 amendment, that was basically to put the details of the erection of the fence under the discretion of the DHS (Department of Homeland Security), which seems sensible to me. According to the New York Times by April 2009 "the Department of Homeland Security has erected about 613 miles of new pedestrian fencing and vehicle barriers to thwart illegal border crossers and drug smugglers trying to enter the United States" and that "construction is beginning on two new sections of the fence, one through the Rio Grande Valley near Brownsville, Texas, and another in the Otay Mountain Wilderness in California's San Diego County." Sounds like about 1/3 has some sort of barrier.

This USA page (with pictures) looks pretty interesting: The Wall – Interactive map exploring U.S.-Mexico border
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1050
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Sandy » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:46 pm

Jon Estes wrote: So which politician do you support that has not told a lie? Intentional or not. If you wAnt to make that a standard for not being allowed to serve or trust... I am not sure who you could nominate. If it a certain number of lies that must be said before being guilty of lying, please tell me that number. Can you name a President in your lifetime that has never lied? Tell me one and if they are on the ballot next time, I’ll vote for them.


Not specifically related to anything in this thread, but an interesting example of how absolutes change depending on who is the President.

No one is perfect, including certain Baptist pastors (and their church members too) but President Obama and his administration's honesty and integrity stand so far above the corruption and dishonesty of Trump, it's not even a fair comparison.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9156
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:53 pm

KeithE wrote:BTW, the total Mexico/US border is 1984 miles, 30 of which is over water.
BTW, besides that 30, the entire Texas-Mexico border is divided by the water of the Rio Grande. According to TXDOT, the Texas-Mexico border is 1254 miles long. As I understand it the border is in the middle of the riverbed. This creates some unique problems for fencing, walls, barriers or whatever. According to USA Today the "Texas border is mostly unfenced because of treaty provisions, private-property rights, litigation and floodplains. Fencing was easier to build in New Mexico, Arizona and California, where the federal government controls a 60-foot-wide strip of land adjacent to the border."

When you see some of the terrain in places on the Texas-Mexico border (obviously not all of it), it seems to me that what is already there would be harder to cross than a fence or wall!
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1050
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:56 pm

This National Geographic photographer (not a proponent) supplies pictures of some walls, fencing, and barriers that already existed in September 2017 on the U.S.-Mexico border.
Surreal photos show walls dividing U.S. and Mexico
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1050
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Sandy » Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:08 am

Rvaughn wrote:
KeithE wrote:BTW, the total Mexico/US border is 1984 miles, 30 of which is over water.
BTW, besides that 30, the entire Texas-Mexico border is divided by the water of the Rio Grande. According to TXDOT, the Texas-Mexico border is 1254 miles long. As I understand it the border is in the middle of the riverbed. This creates some unique problems for fencing, walls, barriers or whatever. According to USA Today the "Texas border is mostly unfenced because of treaty provisions, private-property rights, litigation and floodplains. Fencing was easier to build in New Mexico, Arizona and California, where the federal government controls a 60-foot-wide strip of land adjacent to the border."

When you see some of the terrain in places on the Texas-Mexico border (obviously not all of it), it seems to me that what is already there would be harder to cross than a fence or wall!


We used to take our ninth grade class out to Big Bend National Park for a few days at the beginning of the school year to help build relationships and to see some things that kids who lived in the Houston suburbs normally didn't get a chance to see. One of the best features of Big Bend is its emptiness and the fact that there are some place that are really remote. Our longest hike was a four or five hour treck along the river through Boquillas Canyon. It's about as remote a place as you can get, yet about four or five miles up the trail, you are across the river from the little Mexican town of Boquillas. There is no bridge across the river, but when we made the trip it was usually during a dryer season and you can get across the river into Boquillas by stepping on the right rocks and maybe taking your shoes off and wading for 15 or 20 yards.

But the remote nature of the area is probably why there aren't a lot of illegal crossings that take place there. To get to Boquillas from the Mexican side is a three hour ride over bad roads. Once you cross into the US, there's 60 miles of desert in a national park to cross before you get to a settled area.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9156
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Haruo » Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:44 am

KeithE wrote:
Haruo wrote:IIRC is abbreviated internet jargon for "If I Recall Correctly. FWIW ;-)

What is FWIW? ;-)

Abbreviated internet jargon again, For What It's Worth, followed by a winking ASCII emoticon.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12498
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:09 am

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote: So which politician do you support that has not told a lie? Intentional or not. If you wAnt to make that a standard for not being allowed to serve or trust... I am not sure who you could nominate. If it a certain number of lies that must be said before being guilty of lying, please tell me that number. Can you name a President in your lifetime that has never lied? Tell me one and if they are on the ballot next time, I’ll vote for them.


Not specifically related to anything in this thread, but an interesting example of how absolutes change depending on who is the President.

No one is perfect, including certain Baptist pastors (and their church members too) but President Obama and his administration's honesty and integrity stand so far above the corruption and dishonesty of Trump, it's not even a fair comparison.


It is a part of this thread if people, not I, want to make lying an issue.

Your comments on Pbama are really funny.

Who pushed the video?
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:14 am

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby KeithE » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:32 pm

Jon Estes wrote:It is a part of this thread if people, not I, want to make lying an issue.


This thread is about the President’s lying (see first post in thread). Just one particular lie out of 7546 lies as of Dec 20, 2018 and counting.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9024
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:36 pm

KeithE wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:It is a part of this thread if people, not I, want to make lying an issue.


This thread is about the President’s lying (see first post in thread). Just one particular lie out of 7546 lies as of Dec 20, 2018 and counting.


Interesting... the lack of others lying has no place in this personal rant on the current Presidents lies. The bias is obvious... as if I need to even mention it.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:14 am

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Sandy » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:44 pm

Jon Estes wrote: Your comments on Pbama are really funny.


Yes, I guess most evangelical right wingers do find honesty, morality, integrity and scandal-free politicians something to laugh at, now that they have switched over to support for adulterous, lying, immoral, strip-club owning bigots and abandoned conventional, conservative morals and ethics.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9156
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby KeithE » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:04 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:It is a part of this thread if people, not I, want to make lying an issue.


This thread is about the President’s lying (see first post in thread). Just one particular lie out of 7546 lies as of Dec 20, 2018 and counting.


Interesting... the lack of others lying has no place in this personal rant on the current Presidents lies. The bias is obvious... as if I need to even mention it.

I do not deny that all Presidents have lied (especially when campaigning). In fact I pointed out a Obama campaign lie near the bottom of this post. His specific lie was during a spirited campaign interchange:

In 2011, addressing supporters in El Paso, President Obama jeered that Republicans "wanted a fence. Well, the fence is now basically complete." Audience members, as the official WhiteHouse.gov transcript shows, shouted "Tear it down!”...

"Maybe they'll need a moat," the president added. "Maybe they want alligators in the moat. They'll never be satisfied."

What the president did in that speech was, put simply, to lie — claiming to have built the "fence" that Republicans enacted into law, without noting that he and his fellow Democrats in Congress changed it to require much less effective fencing.


This “fence” was not at all complete - a bald face lie.

Late in Obama’s campaign, RWers created a list of 50 supposed Obama lies. But Snopes Fact Checked this and found most were not really lies at all. This makes for interesting reading. READ IT!

As for his term as president, the Washington Post reviewed 250 supposed false statements by Obama and only found 10 "Four Pinochios" lies. Read Obama’s biggest whoppers. This may cost you $1 to access. And even at that I could not find how many Three, Two and One Pinochio’s lies by Obama.

But the magnitude of the lying Trump habitually does is something you must recognize if you have an ounce of objectivity. Who is “biased”???

Trump's credibility is hanging by a very thin thread (a fact that the world sees clearly). The lie totals range from 6240 to 7546 and it is accelerating (2.9/day lies in 2017 and 8.9/day in 2018).
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9024
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Democrats all supported the wall?

Postby Sandy » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:20 pm

Trump is a pathological liar, among a long list of other things that are demonstrations of immoral character and complete lack of ethics. To attempt to compare him to President Obama, who ran a scandal-free administration with a level of honesty and integrity worthy of the United States of America is a clear example of bias against Obama, and a joke. The only other American president in the same category with a low life like Donald Trump is Richard Nixon and maybe Warren Harding.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9156
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Next

Return to Politics and Public Policy Issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest