Soldiers coming home

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Soldiers coming home

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:52 am

I, for one, am glad that the President is calling our military home from Syria.

The left should be pro such decision.
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Re: Soldiers coming home

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:47 am

My problem here is not to work out a peace but just to leave. Especially, I am bothered by the fact that we are abandoning our allies in the fight against ISIS, the Kurds, to be slaughtered by the Turks, the Syrians, and the Russians, after the Kurds did much of the fighting and dying to uproot ISIS.
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Re: Soldiers coming home

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:28 am

Dave Roberts wrote:My problem here is not to work out a peace but just to leave. Especially, I am bothered by the fact that we are abandoning our allies in the fight against ISIS, the Kurds, to be slaughtered by the Turks, the Syrians, and the Russians, after the Kurds did much of the fighting and dying to uproot ISIS.


Interesting that you support having our troops in Syria. I would have thought differently... Interesting days we are living in.
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Re: Soldiers coming home

Postby KeithE » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:48 am

In general I’m in favor of getting out of the Middle East and letting them take care of their own problems (Sunnis vs Shiites, Israelis vs Palestinians, etc.).

Yes I know that is an isolationist viewpoint and I tend that way but not is certain instances. One such instance is that the Kurds need protective forces (as Dave has pointed out) and our role in nearby Syria needs to change to include protection of the Kurds from Turkey. The trouble with fighting ISIS is that they will regenerate themselves until we come to an agreement (documented and enforceable) on their and our main issues:

Our issue with the Isalmists (I think I’m using the term right here, Haruo) is that they must end random acts of aggression (also known as terrorism) on our homeland and that of our allies.

The main issues Isalmists have with the US are: (1) they want us out of their land especially their holy lands (we could do that), (2) they object to our stalwart support of Israel in their perennial battle with the Palestinians (I agree with them on that point) and (3) they object to our decadent lifestyle (I agree with them there also).

The partial retrenchment from the Middle East (Syria and less than half our forces in Afghanistan) does not end any of these issues. Nether does Trump fanning th flames of discord (for political purposes) by bans or partial bans of Muslims into our country.

Give Peace a chance. Have serious discussions with all parties involved (not just Turkey) not just partial pre-emptive retreats.
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Re: Soldiers coming home

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:20 am

KeithE wrote:In general I’m in favor of getting out of the Middle East and letting them take care of their own problems (Sunnis vs Shiites, Israelis vs Palestinians, etc.).

Yes I know that is an isolationist viewpoint and I tend that way but not is certain instances. One such instance is that the Kurds need protective forces (as Dave has pointed out) and our role in nearby Syria needs to change to include protection of the Kurds from Turkey. The trouble with fighting ISIS is that they will regenerate themselves until we come to an agreement (documented and enforceable) on their and our main issues:

Our issue with the Isalmists (I think I’m using the term right here, Haruo) is that they must end random acts of aggression (also known as terrorism) on our homeland and that of our allies.

The main issues Isalmists have with the US are: (1) they want us out of their land especially their holy lands (we could do that), (2) they object to our stalwart support of Israel in their perennial battle with the Palestinians (I agree with them on that point) and (3) they object to our decadent lifestyle (I agree with them there also).

The partial retrenchment from the Middle East (Syria and less than half our forces in Afghanistan) does not end any of these issues. Nether does Trump fanning th flames of discord (for political purposes) by bans or partial bans of Muslims into our country.

Give Peace a chance. Have serious discussions with all parties involved (not just Turkey) not just partial pre-emptive retreats.



I am in general agreement with Keith. What I see is that the last President with an overall strategy was Bush 41, who built coalitions with Muslim nations to deal with Saddam's incursion into Kuwait but then knew that there was no sense in widening that war for American pride. Since that time, I have not seen an overall strategy. I was not in favor of sending troops into the ISIS conflict, but once engaged, instant withdrawal creates as many (or more) problems as it solves. To work, it needs to be staged, or we simply leave the stage to the Russians and the Iranians.
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Re: Soldiers coming home

Postby Sandy » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:19 pm

Jon Estes wrote:I, for one, am glad that the President is calling our military home from Syria.

The left should be pro such decision.


I'd love to see the US out of the Middle East completely. This decision by Trump is just stupidity based on misinformation, though, like most everything else he does. It will simply open the door for Iran to get to Israel's back door, strengthen Russia's hand in the region and let Turkey wipe out the Kurds.
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Re: Soldiers coming home

Postby Haruo » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:05 pm

The part about being glad the troops are going to be out of harm's way is good. I'm in favor of it. But the situation is complicated by the fact that we are a world power. The Kurds I know were already pretty well disillusioned about Trump. Read Mattis's letter, you'll see why I think.

But basically the problem is that this president is determined to undermine the United States Government and its Constitution which he is sworn to defend. His notion of a Great America is rooted in the Robber Barons, and his idea of what a President should be like is modeled on Putin and Xi (regardless of whether there has been "collusion"). And he enjoys the godlike feeling of being the creator of chaos. But give him 5 billion USD and he'll find a way to get it from the Mexicans and abscond with the initial offering.
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Re: Soldiers coming home

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:29 am

Haruo wrote:But basically the problem is that this president is determined to undermine the United States Government and its Constitution which he is sworn to defend.

How is pulling troops out of Syria undermining the gov and constitution?

His notion of a Great America is rooted in the Robber Barons, and his idea of what a President should be like is modeled on Putin and Xi (regardless of whether there has been "collusion").

Opinion noted and chuckled at.

And he enjoys the godlike feeling of being the creator of chaos.

Oh, how you know the heart of the man you despise... there wouldn't be any bias as a result of your disdain ... would there?

But give him 5 billion USD and he'll find a way to get it from the Mexicans and abscond with the initial offering.

At least the transparency is bright. He's not asking to pass a bill so we can read it to know what's in it... are we?

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Re: Soldiers coming home

Postby Sandy » Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:00 am

Jon Estes wrote: At least the transparency is bright. He's not asking to pass a bill so we can read it to know what's in it... are we?


LOL Trump and Transparency. Oxymoron.

Never were asked to do that. Right wing media fantasy.

Other than two dictators who benefit from the ability to have a free hand in Syria, Erdogan and Putin, and the Iranians, no one thinks this is a good move now, including the Israelis and most American Republicans.
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Re: Soldiers coming home

Postby Jon Estes » Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:51 am

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote: At least the transparency is bright. He's not asking to pass a bill so we can read it to know what's in it... are we?


LOL Trump and Transparency. Oxymoron.

We know so much more about what's happening in the WH than previous Presidents. I know you don't see it... oh well.

Never were asked to do that. Right wing media fantasy.

https://youtu.be/hV-05TLiiLU

Never - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA- I didn't think you would try and deny such an "out there" statement. I get it.

Other than two dictators who benefit from the ability to have a free hand in Syria, Erdogan and Putin, and the Iranians, no one thinks this is a good move now, including the Israelis and most American Republicans.

You go from... "Other than two"... to - "no one"... to - "most".

The WAPO agrees... https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2018/12/22/trump-was-right-pull-out-syria-afghanistan-this-is-what-he-should-do-next/?utm_term=.3e1c9c7c6c6c

You are getting hard to follow. It's as if your comments don't agree with themselves.


Did you support Obama's withdrawal from Iraq?

At least Trump has states the troops in Iraq will remain and be ready to support when needed while in the Syria region.

What the left has trouble admitting is much criticism towards Trump only has to do with his name being attached.
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Re: Soldiers coming home

Postby Sandy » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:42 pm

Jon Estes wrote: What the left has trouble admitting is much criticism towards Trump only has to do with his name being attached.


Perhaps that is because his record consists of opening his mouth and lying, or saying something that has no connection to reality. There's no comparison of this to Obama's withdrawal from Iraq. Going into Iraq was the biggest military and political blunder of recent American history since the rationale for it was a big whopping lie. Going in simply destabilized the country and opened the door to insurgencies, the next worse than the previous. Obama depended on the counsel of his military leadership, unlike orange hair, who has now driven most of them off or set them squarely against him.

You can post right wing crap all you want to, Trump's own Secretary of Defense resigned over this move. That says all we need to know and provides underlined evidence of orange hair's incompetence and ineptness.

I'll add this for effect: https://baptist-blogger.com/2018/12/20/hypocrisyria/
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Re: Soldiers coming home

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:15 am

Sandy wrote:You can post right wing crap all you want to, Trump's own Secretary of Defense resigned over this move. That says all we need to know and provides underlined evidence of orange hair's incompetence and ineptness.


Do you speak of the SoD who Obama fired?

Listen, I could care less if you late... hate... or anywhere in between, Trump. As a Christian, speak In respective terms when speaking of others. No disparaging names. I asked that when I first was a moderator. Please do what is right.
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Re: Soldiers coming home

Postby Sandy » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:27 pm

Jon Estes wrote: Do you speak of the SoD who Obama fired?


Obama's firing of Mattis as chief of the central command, a much lesser post than Secretary of Defense, is irrelevant to this discussion. The expert in the Trump administration, lauded by conservatives as one of his best moves (and there have been so few that it isn't difficult to figure this out) and one of the best possible choices resigned his post because he was of the opinion that the President, whom he advises and who clearly doesn't listen to advice, demonstrated his incompetence with a decision to withdraw troops from Syria at the present time. So who was he listening to? Clearly, not anyone in the NATO alliance who is now going ahead with plans in spite of the US withdrawal to beef up their presence. Clearly not the Israeli government whom he claims to favor and fawn over with appearances and words, but not with action. Clearly not anyone in his own cabinet, or the joint chiefs of staff. Putin has been vocal about the US presence and getting us out, and so has Erdogan in Turkey. That's it.
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Re: Soldiers coming home

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:36 am

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote: Do you speak of the SoD who Obama fired?


Obama's firing of Mattis as chief of the central command, a much lesser post than Secretary of Defense, is irrelevant to this discussion. The expert in the Trump administration, lauded by conservatives as one of his best moves (and there have been so few that it isn't difficult to figure this out) and one of the best possible choices resigned his post because he was of the opinion that the President, whom he advises and who clearly doesn't listen to advice, demonstrated his incompetence with a decision to withdraw troops from Syria at the present time. So who was he listening to? Clearly, not anyone in the NATO alliance who is now going ahead with plans in spite of the US withdrawal to beef up their presence. Clearly not the Israeli government whom he claims to favor and fawn over with appearances and words, but not with action. Clearly not anyone in his own cabinet, or the joint chiefs of staff. Putin has been vocal about the US presence and getting us out, and so has Erdogan in Turkey. That's it.


[url]https://twitter.com/deptofdefense/status/1078716016144859136?s=21
[/url]
U.S. Dept of Defense

@DeptofDefense
The next phase of US support to the #Coalition's operation in #Syria is a deliberate, well thought-out, mutually supportive, and controlled withdrawal of forces while taking all measures possible to ensure our troops' safety and protection. #DefeatISIS

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Re: Soldiers coming home

Postby Haruo » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:11 am

DoD tweets about this reduction in support as a continuation. And of course from Ereoğan's POV it is, since he wants a free hand.
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