On Being Civil

The place to discuss politics and policy issues that are not directly related to matters of faith.

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Re: On Being Civil

Postby Jon Estes » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:27 pm

Kate Steiner felt comfortable enough to stroll on the boardwalk without fear. Wish the illegal who killed her would have never been here.

I hope such tragedy never becomes real to you or anyone you know. Things such as this, hitting at home or near home, change ones perspective.

Speaking to your last paragraph... I thought you liked BC.
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Re: On Being Civil

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:57 pm

The words from yesterday and today give us native-born mass killers or attempted mass killers--one mailing pipe bombs which the Director of the FBI said were not hoaxes and the second is a shooter at a Jewish synagogue in Pittsburg. Our mass killers seem to be coming from the native born. Yes, there have been failures in the immigration system, but to a far lesser degree than among the native born.
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Re: On Being Civil

Postby Haruo » Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:21 pm

Jon Estes wrote:Kate Steiner felt comfortable enough to stroll on the boardwalk without fear. Wish the illegal who killed her would have never been here.

I wish the same, but I don't think going after "illegals" (in this sense) is the way to improve safety. Statistically the native-born US citizens are more prone to killing than the "illegal" relatively recent arrivals. We might be better off finding ways of detecting those (of whatever citizenship or migrant/refugee status) who are dangerous. The president spends a lot of time drumming up fear and loathing of those south of the border or east of the Jordan. He should have better things to do.

I think the guy in Pittsburgh must have seen the pipebomb mailings as the signal to revisit and revive Kristallnacht. The President is not, I'm pretty sure, in any meaningful sense anti-Semitic (or anti-Jewish), but at the same time I'm quite sure that a lot of people who hate "the Jews" either especially or as part of the amorphous Other that also includes Muslims, Mexicans, and Democrats, see in Mr. Trump an encouragement, a leader, a goad. He really shouldn't be encouraging them.
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Re: On Being Civil

Postby Joseph Patrick » Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:12 pm

Jon Estes wrote:Kate Steiner felt comfortable enough to stroll on the boardwalk without fear. Wish the illegal who killed her would have never been here.

I hope such tragedy never becomes real to you or anyone you know. Things such as this, hitting at home or near home, change ones perspective.

Speaking to your last paragraph... I thought you liked BC.

From Gerry Milligan...Jon, we can anecdote until the cows come home. For example, if we extrapolate what happened to Kate Stiner (one victim, one attacker who was an undocumented alien) can we also isolate all Catholics because Timothy McVey (sp?) was Catholic? As pointed out above, the mass killing in Pittsburgh and the letter bombs were done by home grown wackos, not asylum seekers. While what happened to Kate Steiner was terrible, had our court system, our immigration enforcement and local law enforcement done their jobs this would not have happened to her.
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Re: On Being Civil

Postby Haruo » Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:53 pm

At least the Pittsburgh one was not a Trump admirer as I first feared.
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Re: On Being Civil

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:50 am

Joseph Patrick wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:Kate Steiner felt comfortable enough to stroll on the boardwalk without fear. Wish the illegal who killed her would have never been here.

I hope such tragedy never becomes real to you or anyone you know. Things such as this, hitting at home or near home, change ones perspective.

Speaking to your last paragraph... I thought you liked BC.

From Gerry Milligan...Jon, we can anecdote until the cows come home. For example, if we extrapolate what happened to Kate Stiner (one victim, one attacker who was an undocumented alien) can we also isolate all Catholics because Timothy McVey (sp?) was Catholic? As pointed out above, the mass killing in Pittsburgh and the letter bombs were done by home grown wackos, not asylum seekers. While what happened to Kate Steiner was terrible, had our court system, our immigration enforcement and local law enforcement done their jobs this would not have happened to her.


Joseph,

Not much we can do to stop sicko citizens from being here... but we DO NOT need willfully put ourselves into the position where we add to our already sicko problem.

Our immigration system needs to do their job and not let illegals in. Glad you agree... referencing your last sentence. My whole argument all along.

If KS were your daughter, would you be saying the same thing to the other parents who have lost their loved ones at the hands of illegal aliens? I hope not.
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Re: On Being Civil

Postby KeithE » Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:59 pm

Jon is ignoring the positives immigrants bring, especially the economic benefit.

And the fact that immigrants are more law abiding and less violent than native born. The nationistic-right wing violent streak has been growing since Rush L.

Google the facts - I’m on a cell phone in Maui. I have repeatably made these points previously on BL!

And, Jon, you have no idea how KS’s relatives think on this matter unless you can quote them.
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Re: On Being Civil

Postby Joseph Patrick » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:29 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
Joseph Patrick wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:Kate Steiner felt comfortable enough to stroll on the boardwalk without fear. Wish the illegal who killed her would have never been here.

I hope such tragedy never becomes real to you or anyone you know. Things such as this, hitting at home or near home, change ones perspective.

Speaking to your last paragraph... I thought you liked BC.

From Gerry Milligan...Jon, we can anecdote until the cows come home. For example, if we extrapolate what happened to Kate Stiner (one victim, one attacker who was an undocumented alien) can we also isolate all Catholics because Timothy McVey (sp?) was Catholic? As pointed out above, the mass killing in Pittsburgh and the letter bombs were done by home grown wackos, not asylum seekers. While what happened to Kate Steiner was terrible, had our court system, our immigration enforcement and local law enforcement done their jobs this would not have happened to her.


Joseph,

Not much we can do to stop sicko citizens from being here... but we DO NOT need willfully put ourselves into the position where we add to our already sicko problem.

Our immigration system needs to do their job and not let illegals in. Glad you agree... referencing your last sentence. My whole argument all along.

If KS were your daughter, would you be saying the same thing to the other parents who have lost their loved ones at the hands of illegal aliens? I hope not.


From Gerry Milligan...Jon, your last sentence was not part of what you wrote in your first post. So answer something similar your own question: "If KS were your daughter, would you be saying the same thing to the other parents who have lost their loved ones at the hands of a drunk driver?" What, as a pastor does one say to any parent who has had a child precede them in death? You, Jon, are in Dubai where motor vehicle deaths are rampant. Do you have any special words for the bereaved parents? As far as I know, a sincere "I am sorry for your loss" is not adequate, but I do not think that I would try to explain why it occurred.
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Re: On Being Civil

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:39 pm

KeithE wrote:Jon is ignoring the positives immigrants bring, especially the economic benefit.

And the fact that immigrants are more law abiding and less violent than native born. The nationistic-right wing violent streak has been growing since Rush L.

Not completely a fair comparison. Apples and oranges to be real. We must deal with the natural born citizens here who commit crimes. That is part of the landscape we can’t stop from entering, they are here. Even if in this crowd there were 10 murderers, that is a real numbervthat adds to the already evil number. If those 10 persons do not enter the country, we do not increase the number we already have to deal with.

I’d choose a less economic standing if it meant we could still have KS (and the many others killed by illegal immigrants) with us. I believe it is safe each family who has lost their loved ones to the hands of an illegal would also. I would be a bit surprised if you thought differently... I think.


Google the facts - I’m on a cell phone in Maui. I have repeatably made these points previously on BL!

And, Jon, you have no idea how KS’s relatives think on this matter unless you can quote them.

I believe I am on good ground to believe they would choose KS back over a killer in illegally..
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Re: On Being Civil

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:46 pm

Joseph Patrick wrote:Joseph,

Not much we can do to stop sicko citizens from being here... but we DO NOT need willfully put ourselves into the position where we add to our already sicko problem.

Our immigration system needs to do their job and not let illegals in. Glad you agree... referencing your last sentence. My whole argument all along.

If KS were your daughter, would you be saying the same thing to the other parents who have lost their loved ones at the hands of illegal aliens? I hope not.


From Gerry Milligan...Jon, your last sentence was not part of what you wrote in your first post. So answer something similar your own question: "If KS were your daughter, would you be saying the same thing to the other parents who have lost their loved ones at the hands of a drunk driver?" What, as a pastor does one say to any parent who has had a child precede them in death? You, Jon, are in Dubai where motor vehicle deaths are rampant. Do you have any special words for the bereaved parents? As far as I know, a sincere "I am sorry for your loss" is not adequate, but I do not think that I would try to explain why it occurred.

Joseph, if a parent knew their child was killed by someone who should not be in the country and expressed such anger towards that, I would verbally agree with them.

If the person who killed was in the country by citizenship, the parent would not be dealing with such a variable. These are two different scenarios... apples and oranges when defining the killer and if they were present in the country legally vs. illegally.

I think you know this... or at least hope you understand it.
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Re: On Being Civil

Postby Sandy » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:16 pm

So from Jon's logic, the solution is simple. Deport everyone in America whose ancestors emigrated here from somewhere else and there will not be a risk of a real American getting killed by an immigrant.

This country has put its ideals forth to the world, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and as a result of that, has become the world's only genuine refuge from oppression, which is why people risk their lives and everything they have to try to come here and build a life. There are few, if any, other places in the world where people enjoy the protection of their liberty as we do here. But everytime we put obstacles in the way of people being able to enjoy the same liberty we do, we put that freedom in danger. When America ceases to be a refuge and the world's greatest hope for freedom and opportunity, we will not have ours any more either.
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Re: On Being Civil

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 am

Sandy wrote:So from Jon's logic, the solution is simple. Deport everyone in America whose ancestors emigrated here from somewhere else and there will not be a risk of a real American getting killed by an immigrant.

I see you still have the inability to comprehend... oh well.

Please show me where I said deport anyone...

Never mind... it wouldn't matter.


This country has put its ideals forth to the world, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and as a result of that, has become the world's only genuine refuge from oppression, which is why people risk their lives and everything they have to try to come here and build a life. There are few, if any, other places in the world where people enjoy the protection of their liberty as we do here. But everytime we put obstacles in the way of people being able to enjoy the same liberty we do, we put that freedom in danger. When America ceases to be a refuge and the world's greatest hope for freedom and opportunity, we will not have ours any more either.

Ok - I think I get it. The people's only hope is America. Interesting thoughts coming from a follower of Christ... who is commanded to go to them and make disciple among them. Baptists have learned well from these this type if thinking. Thinking that teaches us to sit and wait instead of go and tell. Makes sense when the reason is their only hope and refuge is America. The same America that keeps kicking Christ out of the public conversation with the support of the left-leaning thinkers.

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Re: On Being Civil

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:35 am

I don't hear anyone saying that America is their eternal hope. I do hear many of our politicians saying that "America is the world's economic hope." We have so painted ourselves to most of Central and South America, so it is no wonder they want to come and share in our bounty. The idea of not going to reach the world is one that currently is making the rounds in much of Christianity which thinks we can save the world by translating and beaming our messages across the globe instead of going to incarnate the gospel in a particular culture or that we can fulfill our mission just by streaming on the internet. Our incarnational mission has never been "build it and they will come" or "beam it and they will hear." Yet we often act as though it is. Immigration reform and missions have little to do with each other, IMHO.
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Re: On Being Civil

Postby Sandy » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:47 am

Jon Estes wrote:Ok - I think I get it. The people's only hope is America.


Clearly, that's not what I said. I see you still have the inability to comprehend. Oh well.

What I said was that this country has become the world's only genuine refuge from oppression. There are other places where people can go to escape oppression and find refuge, but none that have the scope of resources or ability to take care of nearly as many people. That's really irrelevant to this whole discussion, though.

The fact of the matter is that this country has a system in place which is capable of screening out criminals, potential problems and not allowing those kinds of elements into the country. That the system works, and works well, is evident in the fact that the crime rate among the immigrant population in the US is fractional compared to that of the general population. No system would screen out every single potential problem, just as no system can prevent every single person from crossing the border illegally. Not even a wall. The fact that a wall doesn't work is evident in the stream of Central Americans in the caravan who have come into Mexico from Guatemala. Back when orange hair was really pushing for a wall, conservatives posted pictures of the "wall" along the border with Guatemala that Mexico supposedly built. More conservative lies, I guess, since the wall either doesn't exist or it couldn't stop a group of about 4,000 poor Honduran women and children from crossing into Mexico.

If we weren't pre-occupied with making sure the rich get spectacular tax cuts, then immigration and the border patrol would have the personnel and equipment to do their job. I'm not an advocate for open borders, but then, few people are, but if you keep advocating for the wealthiest of the wealthy to not pay taxes like orange hair, you can't enforce immigration law.
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Re: On Being Civil

Postby JE Pettibone » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:42 am

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:Ok - I think I get it. The people's only hope is America.


Clearly, that's not what I said. I see you still have the inability to comprehend. Oh well.

What I said was that this country has become the world's only genuine refuge from oppression. There are other places where people can go to escape oppression and find refuge, but none that have the scope of resources or ability to take care of nearly as many people. That's really irrelevant to this whole discussion, though.

The fact of the matter is that this country has a system in place which is capable of screening out criminals, potential problems and not allowing those kinds of elements into the country. That the system works, and works well, is evident in the fact that the crime rate among the immigrant population in the US is fractional compared to that of the general population. No system would screen out every single potential problem, just as no system can prevent every single person from crossing the border illegally. Not even a wall. The fact that a wall doesn't work is evident in the stream of Central Americans in the caravan who have come into Mexico from Guatemala. Back when orange hair was really pushing for a wall, conservatives posted pictures of the "wall" along the border with Guatemala that Mexico supposedly built. More conservative lies, I guess, since the wall either doesn't exist or it couldn't stop a group of about 4,000 poor Honduran women and children from crossing into Mexico.

If we weren't pre-occupied with making sure the rich get spectacular tax cuts, then immigration and the border patrol would have the personnel and equipment to do their job. I'm not an advocate for open borders, but then, few people are, but if you keep advocating for the wealthiest of the wealthy to not pay taxes like orange hair, you can't enforce immigration law.


Ed: Sandy what data do you offer to support either of your claims that;

1. "this country has become the world's only genuine refuge from oppression."

2. If we weren't (a)pre-occupied with making sure the rich get spectacular tax cuts, or (B) then immigration and the border patrol would have the personnel and equipment to do their job.

3. That a wall which you question the the existence of, proves that Trumps proposed wall would be equally ineffective.
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Re: On Being Civil

Postby Sandy » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:05 pm

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mexic ... la-border/
The "wall" that conservatives (Americans for Common Sense) claimed existed between Mexico and Guatemala didn't exist. What they were trying to do, obiously, was point out that Mexico was being hypocritical in its criticism of Trump's wall and at the same time try to convince people that they had one on their border with Guatemala. Using the "Rush Limbaugh strategy," which is to tell gigantic whoppers and claim they're true because your followers are dumb enough to believe everything you say, they put out this garbage. And that's the point. If you pushed the idea that Mexico had built a wall between itself and Guatemala to stop illegal crossings so Trump's would also be successful, then the caravan should be no threat, since it wouldn't be able to get past the wall.

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article ... 732110.php
https://www.economist.com/open-future/2 ... -to-itself

From the economist article,
"Traditionally, America has resettled more refugees than any other state and it still contributes a big share of UNHCR’s budget."

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil. ... ted-states
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-do ... ystem-work
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Re: On Being Civil

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:43 am

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:Ok - I think I get it. The people's only hope is America.


Clearly, that's not what I said. I see you still have the inability to comprehend. Oh well.

What I said was that this country has become the world's only genuine refuge from oppression.

Let me see if I comprehend this correctly... You say... "this country has become the world's only genuine refuge from oppression." You said that right?

So God is not a genuine refuge for any and all people? That God is not the best one to turn to when oppression hits home?

I don't know how to comprehend it ay differently. If you wish to exalt the USA over God... that's on you.


There are other places where people can go to escape oppression and find refuge, but none that have the scope of resources or ability to take care of nearly as many people. That's really irrelevant to this whole discussion, though.

Actually its totally relevant to the discussion any Believer must have when speaking of those in need.
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Re: On Being Civil

Postby Sandy » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:40 pm

Jon Estes wrote:So God is not a genuine refuge for any and all people?


Absolutely. He certainly is. So if that is the case, and a person is experiencing the kind of oppression that endangers his or her physical body, are you saying that they should just trust in God and hang around wherever they are and see what happens? Of course, God is our refuge and strength, and an ever present help in time of need. But that does not mean that people who are physically endangered shouldn't seek safety in a country where the danger cannot reach them, and where they are safe from physical harm.

I guess the thought never occurred to you that God provided this country with blessings like freedom and resources to be used by him to take care of refugees, or that it was our collective believe in such that caused us to get the reputation in the first place. Of course, when we have nut case right wing conservative extremists shooting up synagogues, we might lose that reputation.
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