8 "guilties"

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8 "guilties"

Postby Haruo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:24 pm

I'm interested in William's take on the Manafort trial and the Cohen plea-bargain. Vis-à-vis the notion that the Mueller stuff is a "witch hunt" etc.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby William Thornton » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:36 am

Well, I didn't vote for the guy so I'm not sure I'm the best person to answer.

Cohen's admissions don't convict trump of anything but he can't be happy about them. Campaign finance violations?

Still looking for Russia collusion?

Trump's problems are political, not legal, just like Clinton's.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:58 am

Does the November election then become a national referendum on impeachment?
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby Sandy » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:14 am

Perhaps. Manafort's convictions are the most stunning yet, along with Cohen's guilty plea, but what the evidence points to from the six or seven Trump campaign officials who have either been convicted or pled guilty is pretty bad. Manafort and Cohen connect the dots from Trump directly to the Russians. Trump has already committed impeachable offenses, and the hush money is a slam dunk. There is a divide beginning to form between Republicans who are already underwater in polling data and those who seem willing to ignore everything. If the Mueller investigation concludes before the election, and most Republicans sit back and do nothing, then it will be. Looking at what has come out so far, though, I think when Mueller is done, there will be enough Republicans interested in preserving their own political hide to get an impeachment through both houses without much trouble.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:19 am

William Thornton wrote:Well, I didn't vote for the guy so I'm not sure I'm the best person to answer.

Cohen's admissions don't convict trump of anything but he can't be happy about them. Campaign finance violations?

Still looking for Russia collusion?

Trump's problems are political, not legal, just like Clinton's.


They would become legal if Cohen's contention that Trump ordered the payments could be proven. Right now it is Cohen's word against Trump's word.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:22 am

Dave Roberts wrote:Does the November election then become a national referendum on impeachment?


I think it could. Right now I see a possibility of the Democrats retaking the House. I think retaking the Senate is not as likely. Impeachment and conviction really only become viable if we get all of congress. So surely this will encourage Democrats to get out and vote.

It doesn't change what I do. I vote in every election. But, unfortunately, a lot of younger adults are known for sitting out the midterms.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby KeithE » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:29 am

It is really 16 guilty judgments. 8 on Manafort, 8 on Cohen.

Only 2 of those guilty pleas directly affect Trump (or the Russian meddling investigation or Trump participation/degree of Trump collusion with Russia- there is much more to come there). Cohen was charged with two counts of campaign finance crime wrt to the payoff of of two women to keep quiet their sexual contacts with Donald Trump. Trump clearly did not want to have that information in the public before Nov 2106 election. I don’t know if it mattered to the election results or not, but it is still a crime.

I agree with Lanny Davis’s tweet

Lanny Davis
(@LannyDavis)
Today he {Cohen} stood up and testified under oath that Donald Trump directed him to commit a crime by making payments to two women for the principal purpose of influencing an election. If those payments were a crime for Michael Cohen, then why wouldn't they be a crime for Donald Trump?


Just out: Michael Cohen: I Won’t Accept a Pardon From ‘Criminal’ Trump

I think Manafort has been counting on the pardon. We will see if he still feels that way after his sentencing in Dec 2018.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby KeithE » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:50 am

Tim Bonney wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Well, I didn't vote for the guy so I'm not sure I'm the best person to answer.

Cohen's admissions don't convict trump of anything but he can't be happy about them. Campaign finance violations?

Still looking for Russia collusion?

Trump's problems are political, not legal, just like Clinton's.


They would become legal if Cohen's contention that Trump ordered the payments could be proven. Right now it is Cohen's word against Trump's word.


Cohen has the tape with Trump telling him to make the payments to McDougal. Sections of tape have been released to public but more context would help clarify the arrangements - I suspect Cohen has the whole tape. So it is not just Cohen's word vs Trump’s word.

And BTW, Trump’s word is not worth anything (President Trump has made 4,229 false or misleading claims in 558 days in his presidency as of August 1, 2018). Cohen's admission under oath outweighs Donald by a long shot.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby JE Pettibone » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:52 am

Ed: Talk about misleading statements Keith first says "Cohen has the tape with Trump telling him to make the payments to McDougal",

Then he says "I suspect Cohen has the whole tape. So it is not just Cohen's word vs Trump’s word." Which is it. does Keith know that Cohen has the tape including the perported statement by trump or only that he suspects it. Keith seems to be saying,
my suspicion makes Cohen's word more valid than Trumps. I see that as a huge jump in the dark.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby William Thornton » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:21 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Well, I didn't vote for the guy so I'm not sure I'm the best person to answer.

Cohen's admissions don't convict trump of anything but he can't be happy about them. Campaign finance violations?

Still looking for Russia collusion?

Trump's problems are political, not legal, just like Clinton's.


They would become legal if Cohen's contention that Trump ordered the payments could be proven. Right now it is Cohen's word against Trump's word.


Oh, a guy who says trump is presumed innocent? Need a trial and jury? How constitutional of you.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby Sandy » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:07 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: Talk about misleading statements Keith first says "Cohen has the tape with Trump telling him to make the payments to McDougal",

Then he says "I suspect Cohen has the whole tape. So it is not just Cohen's word vs Trump’s word." Which is it. does Keith know that Cohen has the tape including the perported statement by trump or only that he suspects it. Keith seems to be saying,
my suspicion makes Cohen's word more valid than Trumps. I see that as a huge jump in the dark.


Not really. Cohen's initial arrest resulted from the seizure of documents and information directly from his office as evidence, literally hundreds of thousands of pages of stuff. So it's not so much a matter of trusting one over the other, it's matching the consistency of their words to the written documentation. A lot of what came out of that raid on Cohen's office connects dots to Trump. And if it is a matter of personal credibility, seems like everyone who was close to Trump and who worked for him both in business and in his campaign have turned out to be under indictment, pled guilty or convicted of some serious crime. They are all a gang of thugs, thieves, liars and scam artists just like he is. Birds of a feather. They are all trying to save their collective hides. Whose word, out of that mess, could you trust?
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby KeithE » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:15 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: Talk about misleading statements Keith first says "Cohen has the tape with Trump telling him to make the payments to McDougal",

Then he says "I suspect Cohen has the whole tape. So it is not just Cohen's word vs Trump’s word." Which is it. does Keith know that Cohen has the tape including the perported statement by trump or only that he suspects it. Keith seems to be saying,
my suspicion makes Cohen's word more valid than Trumps. I see that as a huge jump in the dark.


I am saying there is more to it than just Cohen’s word vs Trump’s word. There is this tape and discussion by an audio tape “expert”. The expert thinks it is incomplete (edited). In itself, is not too explicit as to who was paying who for what purpose. But Cohen recorded it unbeknownst to Trump so I suspect he has the whole tape. The released portion is really just a teaser aimed at an audience of one - Trump- to let him know he (Cohen) has the goods on him. In no way did I say the whole tape would either vindicate or contradict Trump’s word - just that "more context" would help.

I then point out that Trump’s word is not worth much given his history.

In addition, other evidence was brought out by the prosecutors in yesterday’s Cohen hearing where Cohen pled guilty to campaign finance violations. Read pages 11-21 of the court document for a summary of the trove of info collected when Cohen was raided. The “Individual-1” referenced on these pages is clearly Donald J. Trump - see Paragraph 2 in this document (on page 1) which clearly says “ Individual-1, who at that point {Jan 2017} had become the President of the United States”. Trump is implicated as directing this crime but not indicted (yet).

Timothy's claim that this is just Cohen’s word vs Trump’s word is far from true - sorry Timothy and Ed.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby Sandy » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:44 pm

KeithE wrote: In addition, other evidence was brought out by the prosecutors in yesterday’s Cohen hearing where Cohen pled guilty to campaign finance violations. Read pages 11-21 of the court document for a summary of the trove of info collected when Cohen was raided. The “Individual-1” referenced on these pages is clearly Donald J. Trump - see Paragraph 2 in this document (on page 1) which clearly says “ Individual-1, who at that point {Jan 2017} had become the President of the United States”. Trump is implicated as directing this crime but not indicted (yet).


Apparently, there was enough evidence in the treasure trove of evidence they got when they raided Cohen to cause the guilty plea. And while I agree that Trump is a liar and his word is meaningless, I can't say much more for Cohen, who sold himself out for money. And so much for his loyalty, which I doubt ever existed in anyone claiming to be loyal to him. The whole gang is a bunch of liars and thugs.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby KeithE » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:24 am

Sandy wrote:The whole gang is a bunch of liars and thugs.


Agreed. Not only have most of his cabinet spent the public's money on themselves (e.g. Pruitt, Mnuchin, Zinke) or have history of financial crime (e.g. Ross), but many politicians who support Trump are grifters (e.g. Collins and Hunter). Trump is also on the take with the public’s money (costly visits to his hotels, golf resorts). He has surrounded himself with thieves during his business career and his political career.

We simply have to keep a watch on all of politicians. It seems to have been normalized under Trump. Kudos to the press.

Cohen is showing some signs of going honest (perhaps due to being shunned by Trump). Yesterday he jumped on a subpoena concerning the misuse of Trump’s Foundation.

Don't have time to back up with links all of these claimed misuse of funds - but you can google!
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby William Thornton » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:39 am

Glad to see my modlib friends suddenly acquire an appreciation for righteous pols...post Clinton and his gang. It's touching...and so spiritual.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:32 am

KeithE wrote:And BTW, Trump’s word is not worth anything (President Trump has made 4,229 false or misleading claims in 558 days in his presidency as of August 1, 2018). Cohen's admission under oath outweighs Donald by a long shot.


Agreed, his word isn’t worth anything. But just being President gives him quite a level of protection from prosecution.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:59 am

William Thornton wrote:Oh, a guy who says trump is presumed innocent? Need a trial and jury? How constitutional of you.


Legally of course he is presumed innocent. But he’s already contradicted himself so many times in reference nearly everything that actually innocence seems kind of unlikely. I frankly don’t care if he goes to jail or not if he’d just leave the White House.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:02 pm

William Thornton wrote:Glad to see my modlib friends suddenly acquire an appreciation for righteous pols...post Clinton and his gang. It's touching...and so spiritual.


What should be “touching” isn’t that a bunch of mod lib folks have issues with morality. What’s so “touching” now is that Evangelicals no longer really care about sin, as long as you are a politician. Heck, now that behavior doesn’t matter, Evangelicals should be able to just sing Kumbaya holding hands with all the liberals they always claimed were soft on sin in a spirit of unrighteous unity. ;-)
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby William Thornton » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:51 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Oh, a guy who says trump is presumed innocent? Need a trial and jury? How constitutional of you.


Legally of course he is presumed innocent. But he’s already contradicted himself so many times in reference nearly everything that actually innocence seems kind of unlikely. I frankly don’t care if he goes to jail or not if he’d just leave the White House.


And this has been the goal: to overturn the election. Started before the Electoral College cast their votes and has continued. I decided to ride Obama out without undue gnashing of teeth. He was terrible but the republic survived.

It might be more accurate to say that the trump haters don't care whether he is guilty or innocent. they just want him out.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby William Thornton » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:54 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Glad to see my modlib friends suddenly acquire an appreciation for righteous pols...post Clinton and his gang. It's touching...and so spiritual.


What should be “touching” isn’t that a bunch of mod lib folks have issues with morality. What’s so “touching” now is that Evangelicals no longer really care about sin, as long as you are a politician. Heck, now that behavior doesn’t matter, Evangelicals should be able to just sing Kumbaya holding hands with all the liberals they always claimed were soft on sin in a spirit of unrighteous unity. ;-)


Nice broad generalization. You could do better. But this is just a rant site when it comes to politics. Even Dr. Graphology sprinkles wiggle words into his prounouncments. Mr. Dem Talking Points is a reliable opponent of all things Republican, doesn't matter what the facts are or aren't.

Like I said, I didn't vote for the guy but I'm not joining the foaming-at-the-mouth torch carrying mob.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby Sandy » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:09 pm

William Thornton wrote:
Tim Bonney wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Oh, a guy who says trump is presumed innocent? Need a trial and jury? How constitutional of you.


Legally of course he is presumed innocent. But he’s already contradicted himself so many times in reference nearly everything that actually innocence seems kind of unlikely. I frankly don’t care if he goes to jail or not if he’d just leave the White House.


And this has been the goal: to overturn the election. Started before the Electoral College cast their votes and has continued. I decided to ride Obama out without undue gnashing of teeth. He was terrible but the republic survived.

It might be more accurate to say that the trump haters don't care whether he is guilty or innocent. they just want him out.


Nice, broad generalization there. This is now the position taken by most conservative Evangelical supporters of Trump. Rule of law doesn't matter. It isn't whether he is guilty or innocent, it is defending him at all costs in spite of the immorality, lying and living above the law in every way his money can buy because he throws out a few bones that they can gnaw on every now and then. You want to keep bringing up Clinton? Wasn't he the guy that prompted the religious right to declare that the personal morality of a candidate was the most important characteristic to consider? I believe that immorality is what it is, and Clinton gets no pass in that regard. But if you're going to become a hypocrite and declare that morality no longer matters, that it is the issues and positions that make the difference for you, then you need to at least back a President who has a measure of competence and intelligence. With Clinton, you lose on the morality, but you win on the competence and skill of an accomplished, successful presidency. With Trump, not only do you find yourself in the gutter when it comes to morality and character, but you lose in competence and intelligence as well with a clearly inept and incapable idiot.

Presumption of innocence in Trump's case is a joke, given what is already known from the statements and evidence collected from those in his inner campaign circle who have pled guilty or been convicted, and from his own attempts to obstruct justice. It is also a joke every time the name Clinton is invoked, because his enemies never bothered with the facts nor did they wait until there was clear evidence he had done something. Even then, whether the offense he committed was "impeachable" or not is still up for debate. You can bet your last dollar and your shirt that if a Democrat had done what this president has done since taking office, he'd or she'd have long ago been impeached and removed from office, and they'd be invoking the death penalty. Flinging Clinton's name into this debate undermines your credibility, is hypocritical, and makes your perspective indefensible.

Overturn the election? A dream too good to be true. But I'll settle for impeachment and removal.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby William Thornton » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:51 pm

Like I said...rant site when it comes to politics. I don't get emotionally involved.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby Haruo » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:05 pm

The exchange between Trump and Sessions today was entertaining, I imagine. I think Sessions is setting himself up to be a carryover to the Pence cabinet.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby KeithE » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:41 pm

William Thornton wrote:Like I said...rant site when it comes to politics. I don't get emotionally involved.


William just uses sarcasm “It's touching...and so spiritual” and name calling (“rant" site, "Dr. Graphology", "Mr. Dem talking points”). He takes after the person (who while he says he didn’t vote for), he supports at every opportunity herein. Remember "Crooked Hillary” (and who has demonstrated crookedness his whole adult life - Trump), "Lying Ted” (and who has lied over 4000 times since in office - Trump), “low energy” Jeb Bush (and who is taking leisure time virtually every weekend - Trump). All the while giving himself an A+ as President.

Substance (True Facts/Data/Evidence) in William's posts is just not there. No facts, just do some empty sarcasm or name calling. Pure emotional appeal.
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Re: 8 "guilties"

Postby William Thornton » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:20 pm

I note "high energy" Keith's latest...
...and like I said, I'm not all that emotionally invested in this. But am emotionally invested enough to offer The Grande Eyeroll.

Prepare to ride this out brethren, or, get a fulfilling hobby.
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