Christians and Truth

The place to discuss politics and policy issues that are not directly related to matters of faith.

Moderator: Jon Estes

Christians and Truth

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:33 am

"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7189
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby KeithE » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:07 am

Very good article.

I note that a David Roberts is quoted down near the ned of the article. But it’s not you.

My sense is that the “original sin” in this lack of honesty (“christian lying” in this article) was in the late 19th century with the theory of biblical inerrancy (BB Warfield and AA Hodge at Princeton Sem). It grew into creationism in the early 1900’s (think Scopes trial) and later into political conservatism in the 1970’s (think Moral Majority) and in the 80/90’s was co-opted by purely political conservatism (think Limbaugh/Fox News). Today we are fully into what the article calls a “tribal epistemology” where truth is found by most people base on what their adopted “tribe” says.

Next to come? America is facing an epistemic crisis. What if Mueller proves his case and it doesn’t matter?

It is a sad state of affairs and the only way out, imo, is a broadly employed data/facts epistemology. Real truth matters!
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8737
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby Haruo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:37 am

Dave Roberts wrote:This article raises a lot of questions about our biases. It is worth the read.

https://rewire.news/religion-dispatches/2018/06/29/can-christians-lie-fundamentalist-bible-interpretation-shaped-truth/

A good article, but I'd rather see one that dissected some of the mendacities one runs into on the left and in the mainstream, too.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12077
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby KeithE » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:13 pm

Haruo wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:This article raises a lot of questions about our biases. It is worth the read.

https://rewire.news/religion-dispatches/2018/06/29/can-christians-lie-fundamentalist-bible-interpretation-shaped-truth/

A good article, but I'd rather see one that dissected some of the mendacities one runs into on the left and in the mainstream, too.

Try to find some Haruo.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8737
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby Rvaughn » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:43 pm

Haruo wrote:A good article, but I'd rather see one that dissected some of the mendacities one runs into on the left and in the mainstream, too.
Yea, I'd say the article itself is sort of "tribal".
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby Sandy » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:19 pm

David Roberts the Vox article author wrote:It is similarly difficult for most people to imagine believing that Hillary Clinton has had multiple people killed, that Obama is a secret Muslim who wasn’t born in the US, that Trump had millions of votes stolen, that Barack Obama wiretapped Trump’s White House, that Seth Rich (the mid-level Democratic staffer who was tragically murdered) was assassinated for stealing DNC emails and giving them to WikiLeaks, or that Antifa, the fringe anti-fascist movement, will begin going door-to-door, killing white people, starting on November 4.


You won't find very many, if any, sources on the left or in the mainstream that come up with this kind of nonsense. Most genuine liberals, and an awful lot of mainstream Americans, usually check facts for themselves, and they are not conditioned to believe someone because of their fame, celebrity status or money.
Sandy
 
Posts: 8667
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby Jim » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:50 am

Dave Roberts wrote:This article raises a lot of questions about our biases. It is worth the read.

https://rewire.news/religion-dispatches/2018/06/29/can-christians-lie-fundamentalist-bible-interpretation-shaped-truth/

The article is a piece of garbage. This pearl of wisdom is near the end:

To put this another way, the fundamentalist Christian rejection of academic expertise—in the form of rejecting evolution, mainstream Bible scholarship, and now even climate change …


It's all about Hillary's “basket of deplorables,” who lack the sense to come in out of the rain and the skill to open an umbrella. The mainline denominations have swallowed the Kool-Aid of political correctness but people with COMMON SENSE don't subscribe to the elite's claim to have the corner on SMART. Maybe Douglas has insight as to exactly how God evolved from a lower form of supernatural to – his, its, her – present form dating back beyond the expert guarantee of the super-smart that the earth is somewhere between 4.6 and 5.6 billion (or is it million—doesn't matter) years old. What a crock!
Jim
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky.

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:06 am

Sandy wrote:You won't find very many, if any, sources on the left or in the mainstream that come up with this kind of nonsense. Most genuine liberals, and an awful lot of mainstream Americans, usually check facts for themselves, and they are not conditioned to believe someone because of their fame, celebrity status or money.


As a left leaning Christian I am seeing some liberals getting sucked into the trap of being as strident and offensive as some conservative. Getting mad at the right’s lack of civility while telling the President “F.... you” does not help the liberal cause. And I also run across a few liberal clergy who can’t seem to resist constantly preaching about political issues because they are so upset by the current direction of the country. Of course, doing that reduces the purpose and value of preaching which should always ultimately focus on the gospel even if you feel led to deal with a political issue.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5833
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby Sandy » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:11 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
Sandy wrote:You won't find very many, if any, sources on the left or in the mainstream that come up with this kind of nonsense. Most genuine liberals, and an awful lot of mainstream Americans, usually check facts for themselves, and they are not conditioned to believe someone because of their fame, celebrity status or money.


As a left leaning Christian I am seeing some liberals getting sucked into the trap of being as strident and offensive as some conservative. Getting mad at the right’s lack of civility while telling the President “F.... you” does not help the liberal cause. And I also run across a few liberal clergy who can’t seem to resist constantly preaching about political issues because they are so upset by the current direction of the country. Of course, doing that reduces the purpose and value of preaching which should always ultimately focus on the gospel even if you feel led to deal with a political issue.


The frustration level is understandable. The inconsistency of what is preached from "conservative Evangelical" pulpits with much of what they support politically is glaringly obvious. When it comes to harsh, cruel treatment of refugees from the Middle East, and impossible limitations on their numbers, or the separation of children from their parents among the Central Americans trying to enter the US to keep their kids safe, you have declarations of "the law is the law," references to "rendering unto Caesar" and the passage in Romans about God establishing the governing authorities. When it comes to abortion, gay and lesbian marriage, and health care reform, they shriek about the injustice of it all, and about how secular and pagan the government is behaving. There's no "rendering unto Caesar" or "The government was established by God" talk on that side of the issue from those in that circle. Nor is there any willingness to apply either the law or the scripture to Trump's criminal acts, tax cheating, financial cheating, lying, adultery and immorality. He gets a pass on another alleged "Biblical" principle, "Sometimes God uses bad people to do his will."

In spite of all of the claims of Biblical fidelity, and literal interpretations of an inerrant, infallible Bible, there is a lot of evidence that most people in the pew have little idea of what their church teaches or believes, beyond that which they have conveniently adopted for their own needs. Look how far out of any kind of "orthodox" Christian teachiing Joel Osteen has gone, and yet, his church is full of people who were attracted out of the pews of Evangelical churches with "solidly Biblical" pastors, most of them ex-Southern Baptists. And he's just one of many examples of white Evangelicals flocking to false teachers. Look at the following Wiley Drake had in the SBC. I can't tell you how many times I've heard church members disagree on a doctrinal point and cite some populist televangelist or cult leader as their source. Our culture is intellectually lazy, and entertainment focused, and worships idols, and Christians of all stripes are caught up in that.
Sandy
 
Posts: 8667
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:07 pm

Sandy wrote:
The frustration level is understandable.

In spite of all of the claims of Biblical fidelity, and literal interpretations of an inerrant, infallible Bible, there is a lot of evidence that most people in the pew have little idea of what their church teaches or believes, beyond that which they have conveniently adopted for their own needs.


I greatly appreciate the two point above. Yes, the frustration is very understandable! But, it is a mistake for liberal/progressive Christians to fall into the same trap of incivility or over emphasis on politics in the pulpit that they are decried by conservatives.

I also agree that just because someone believes in inerrancy doesn't mean they are going to actually know what the Bible says or interpret it correctly. One of the oversights in all the arguments over Biblical inspiration and authority is that if people do not have a good Biblical education so that they know how to interpret scripture, it doesn't matter what theory of inspiration they believe, they'll misinterpret the Bible.

As a personal aside, while I've claimed to be a "progressive" over the last several years in reference to my original more conservative theological roots, in the UMC I'm basically a moderate. I see people go off the deep end both on the left and the right. That has become more apparent to me in the last year or so as I've seen liberals want to force their theology on conservatives as much as conservatives what to force their theology on liberals. I don't approve of either.

So, even as back in the days when I identified with the CBF, I now think of myself more as a moderate mainline Christian. (For whatever that is worth.)
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5833
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby KeithE » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:28 pm

Jim wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:This article raises a lot of questions about our biases. It is worth the read.

https://rewire.news/religion-dispatches/2018/06/29/can-christians-lie-fundamentalist-bible-interpretation-shaped-truth/

The article is a piece of garbage. This pearl of wisdom is near the end:

To put this another way, the fundamentalist Christian rejection of academic expertise—in the form of rejecting evolution, mainstream Bible scholarship, and now even climate change …


It's all about Hillary's “basket of deplorables,” who lack the sense to come in out of the rain and the skill to open an umbrella. The mainline denominations have swallowed the Kool-Aid of political correctness but people with COMMON SENSE don't subscribe to the elite's claim to have the corner on SMART. Maybe Douglas has insight as to exactly how God evolved from a lower form of supernatural to – his, its, her – present form dating back beyond the expert guarantee of the super-smart that the earth is somewhere between 4.6 and 5.6 billion (or is it million—doesn't matter) years old. What a crock!


Let’s complete Jim’s snippet from the “article” (not that it will change Jim's mind or settle anything, but will complete the sentence/paragraph and lead to other good links to read):

To put this another way, the fundamentalist Christian rejection of academic expertise—in the form of rejecting evolution, mainstream Bible scholarship, and now even climate change …—was paralleled by a non-fundamentalist conservative rejection of expertise, as when, back in 1995, Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich dissolved the Office of Technology Assessment, a non-partisan office that supplied information and analysis to Congress. By “working the refs,” many American conservatives have redefined neutral, professional expertise—academic, bureaucratic, and now journalistic—as partisan “fake news,” entrenching the (mis)information bubble of many on the Right. The dominance of this “tribal epistemology” among conservatives, including the Christian Right, may have made them more vulnerable {read this link} to the deceptive fake news that circulated during the 2016 election.

There were about 3,500 Facebook fake ads showing the scale of Russian manipulation during the 2016 elections. You can download and read the fake news ads at Russian Fake News Facebook ads starting in June 2015.

It is not about Hillary’s “basket of deplorables” - think indicted Manafort/Gates/Stone/Page/Flynn/Cohen/Papadopolous, but about the integrity of our elections (both 2016 and 2018).

The July 16 Putin/Trump meeting needs to be open to both Americans and Russians - it may be a discussion about the 2018 elections or other nefarious efforts.

I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again - it is time to call the 2016 election a “miselection” and revote with other candidates eligible (or not). We have mistrials. Why not miselections?
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8737
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby KeithE » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:24 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
Sandy wrote:
The frustration level is understandable.

In spite of all of the claims of Biblical fidelity, and literal interpretations of an inerrant, infallible Bible, there is a lot of evidence that most people in the pew have little idea of what their church teaches or believes, beyond that which they have conveniently adopted for their own needs.


I greatly appreciate the two point above. Yes, the frustration is very understandable! But, it is a mistake for liberal/progressive Christians to fall into the same trap of incivility or over emphasis on politics in the pulpit that they are decried by conservatives.

I also agree that just because someone believes in inerrancy doesn't mean they are going to actually know what the Bible says or interpret it correctly. One of the oversights in all the arguments over Biblical inspiration and authority is that if people do not have a good Biblical education so that they know how to interpret scripture, it doesn't matter what theory of inspiration they believe, they'll misinterpret the Bible.

As a personal aside, while I've claimed to be a "progressive" over the last several years in reference to my original more conservative theological roots, in the UMC I'm basically a moderate. I see people go off the deep end both on the left and the right. That has become more apparent to me in the last year or so as I've seen liberals want to force their theology on conservatives as much as conservatives what to force their theology on liberals. I don't approve of either.

So, even as back in the days when I identified with the CBF, I now think of myself more as a moderate mainline Christian. (For whatever that is worth.)


For the record, I see social justice engagement among the most important Christian duties. God wants His creation to love each other and have equal opportunity to happiness/success (also an American founding ideal). This happens both at individual and collective basis. He wants the fortunate to help the unfortunate even if the unfortunate caused their place in life themselves. Remember Christ died for sinners. He wants societies (iow counties) to have humane and fair laws edging us towards the greater common good. The prophets railed against kingdoms that did not help their poor.

Thus I have no problem with clergy who are brave enough to “go political”. I do sympathize with clergy with Trump supporting congregations (I know of one dismissal of a good guy for speaking out against “family separations” in an UMC church). That said, a healthy balance of political (ie collective) and personal (ie individual) messages is best (imo), but I will not railed against an overemphasis on either.

This does not mean we should be uncivil in our attempts to “bring on the Kingdom” on earth. But Christ occasionally did call his opponents out - just not sure about the equivalence of political conservatives and the Pharisees/teachers of the law. I’ll just keep hammering home the facts/data and be on guard about any “tribalism” in my own thought (always defining my political opinions on facts/data - sorry William but graphs do speak truth).
Last edited by KeithE on Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8737
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby Jim » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:28 pm

KeithE wrote:
Jim wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:This article raises a lot of questions about our biases. It is worth the read.

https://rewire.news/religion-dispatches/2018/06/29/can-christians-lie-fundamentalist-bible-interpretation-shaped-truth/

The article is a piece of garbage. This pearl of wisdom is near the end:

To put this another way, the fundamentalist Christian rejection of academic expertise—in the form of rejecting evolution, mainstream Bible scholarship, and now even climate change …


It's all about Hillary's “basket of deplorables,” who lack the sense to come in out of the rain and the skill to open an umbrella. The mainline denominations have swallowed the Kool-Aid of political correctness but people with COMMON SENSE don't subscribe to the elite's claim to have the corner on SMART. Maybe Douglas has insight as to exactly how God evolved from a lower form of supernatural to – his, its, her – present form dating back beyond the expert guarantee of the super-smart that the earth is somewhere between 4.6 and 5.6 billion (or is it million—doesn't matter) years old. What a crock!


Let’s complete Jim’s snippet from the “article” (not that it will change Jim's mind or settle anything, but will complete the sentence/paragraph and lead to other good links to read):

To put this another way, the fundamentalist Christian rejection of academic expertise—in the form of rejecting evolution, mainstream Bible scholarship, and now even climate change …—was paralleled by a non-fundamentalist conservative rejection of expertise, as when, back in 1995, Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich dissolved the Office of Technology Assessment, a non-partisan office that supplied information and analysis to Congress. By “working the refs,” many American conservatives have redefined neutral, professional expertise—academic, bureaucratic, and now journalistic—as partisan “fake news,” entrenching the (mis)information bubble of many on the Right. The dominance of this “tribal epistemology” among conservatives, including the Christian Right, may have made them more vulnerable {read this link} to the deceptive fake news that circulated during the 2016 election.

There were about 3,500 Facebook fake ads showing the scale of Russian manipulation during the 2016 elections. You can download and read the fake news ads at Russian Fake News Facebook ads starting in June 2015.

It is not about Hillary’s “basket of deplorables” - think indicted Manafort/Gates/Stone/Page/Flynn/Cohen/Papadopolous, but about the integrity of our elections (both 2016 and 2018).

The July 16 Putin/Trump meeting needs to be open to both Americans and Russians - it may be a discussion about the 2018 elections or other nefarious efforts.

I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again - it is time to call the 2016 election a “miselection” and revote with other candidates eligible (or not). We have mistrials. Why not miselections?




There were about 3,500 Facebook fake ads showing the scale of Russian manipulation during the 2016 elections. You can download and read the fake news ads at Russian Fake News Facebook ads starting in June 2015.

++I've never subscribed to Facebook so I don't know if you're right or wrong but I doubt that anyone takes what's there seriously. Apparently, you've been had since you seem to think Facebook is inviolable. Egad! I'm sure it's a propaganda device but one presumes that anyone with good sense would disregard Facebook...from what I've heard about it.

It is not about Hillary’s “basket of deplorables” - think indicted Manafort/Gates/Stone/Page/Flynn/Cohen/Papadopolous, but about the integrity of our elections (both 2016 and 2018).

++These guys have nothing at all to do with this subject, which is merely some looney college professor's tirade against Christians. The integrity of our elections may be compromised by guys handing out half-pints (like in Kentucky) for votes but not by the Russkies swigging their vodka. Have you been under a rock?

The July 16 Putin/Trump meeting needs to be open to both Americans and Russians - it may be a discussion about the 2018 elections or other nefarious efforts.

++Of course it will be about elections worldwide. Why bother with just the USA? Who do you suppose Putin favors in Nigeria, for instance, the commies or the Muslim butchers?

I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again - it is time to call the 2016 election a “miselection” and revote with other candidates eligible (or not). We have mistrials. Why not miselections?

++Uh...there's a Constitutional problem with this, both when you've said this before right up to now. Take two aspirin, listen to a "Progressive" fake-news person like Chris Matthews and see if you don't feel all better. A two-year headache (since November 2016) is hard to shake.
Jim
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky.

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby KeithE » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:00 pm

Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote:I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again - it is time to call the 2016 election a “miselection” and revote with other candidates eligible (or not). We have mistrials. Why not miselections?


++Uh...there's a Constitutional problem with this, both when you've said this before right up to now. Take two aspirin, listen to a "Progressive" fake-news person like Chris Matthews and see if you don't feel all better. A two-year headache (since November 2016) is hard to shake.


That is about the only thing you are right about, Jim. It would be a Constitutional hurdle for a re-election (but amendments are always possible). More likely is impeachment proceedings and that would be very Constitutional.

Guests coming over now. Signing out for at least the day.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8737
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby Sandy » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:13 pm

Constitutionally, I don't think there's a way to overturn the results of an election. I don't know how they'd go about it if they find that the Russians tampered with voting machines, which they are investigating BTW. But I think in this case, given the mountain of evidence that the Mueller investigation has gathered, and the reaction to the indictments, and the various ways Trump has tried to derail, discredit, or somehow get out in front of the investigation, they'll find enough for a nice impeachment, trial and removal from office. Shades of Tricky Dick.
Sandy
 
Posts: 8667
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby Jim » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:27 pm

To get an impeachment (simple majority vote) the House has to be flipped to the democrats. The Senate would have to be inordinately flipped to get removal (two-thirds vote). Not likely.
Jim
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky.

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby Sandy » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:03 pm

Jim wrote:To get an impeachment (simple majority vote) the House has to be flipped to the democrats. The Senate would have to be inordinately flipped to get removal (two-thirds vote). Not likely.


I would agree that it's not likely the Democrats will get enough Senate seats to have a two-thirds vote, though I think they will control both Houses after November, relatively easily. But if the Mueller investigation is able to find a direct connection to Trump regarding what they've already uncovered, I think there are still enough Republicans in Congress who would recognize how serious this matter is, would set aside partisanship and would have the integrity to do what was required. If, somehow, there is no direct connection to Trump himself on being involved with the already proven Russian effort to sway the election for him, there is still the matter of his attempted obstruction of justice in the Comey case, and in both of the porn star affairs he had.

The will of Congress to impeach Nixon was almost universal, including among Republicans. The stuff that Mueller has already uncovered is even worse than Watergate, not to mention what they've been able to find out without disclosing. They'll get the GOP votes they need in the Senate.
Sandy
 
Posts: 8667
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby Haruo » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:52 pm

If the Constitution still had Clinton as VP under Trump, I'm not sure how many Republicans would vote to convict, but given that the fallback is Pence... Sandy's scenario here might be realistic. Conversely, this wouldn't particularly help the Democrats on many of the matters that motivate the partisan portion of their desire to get rid of Trump.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12077
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby Sandy » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:43 pm

If you want to have a fair idea of how much obstruction of justice Trump has committed, in the porn star bribery scandals, the Comey firing and in the whole business of the Russians interfering in the election on his behalf, just listen to his most recent lawyer, Giuliani. On Meet the Press today, Giuliani tried to get out in front of the whole Michael Cohen issue by stating that he knows his client, Trump, is completely innocent and has nothing to hide. Translated, that is a statement that says they are very much aware of everything that Cohen has, and know how much corruption and criminal activity it has probably already uncovered. The defections from the federal court district tell you that the investigation isn't going Trump's way.

As far as the open support of some Evangelical Christian leaders and groups for Trump, it is more than just a credibility issue, or hypocrisy, or something that can just be pushed away in a conversation by reverting to the phrase "we elected a commander in chief, not a pastor in chief," or attempting to evaluate the choice as the "lesser of two evils." Put this in the context of declaring a belief in the Bible's inerrancy and infallibility, and of rendering a literal interpretation unless there is a specific context involved in interpreting the passage:


2 Corinthians 6:14-18 wrote:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 What accord has Christ with Belial?[b] Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said,
“I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
17
Therefore go out from their midst,
and be separate from them, says the Lord,
and touch no unclean thing;
then I will welcome you,
18
and I will be a father to you,
and you shall be sons and daughters to me,
says the Lord Almighty.”


This is one of those interesting places where Paul takes one of those Old Testament concepts that identified the Jews as the "chosen people" and equates being chosen with all people who have becme followers of Christ. He's not emphasizing the legal point here as much as he is pointing to a principle by which God's people are to distinguish themselves, not arrogantly, but submissively and in obedience. Some Christians take this to a cultural and lifestyle separation, like the Amish, others alter their physical appearance with hairstyles or beards, or clothing to emphasize their "separation." Baptists have some cultural and physical expressions of separation, but they've generally practiced this principle with their development of congregational, independent, autonomous, local churches, avoidance of any associations or group membership requiring any but the briefest statements of doctrinal and theological agreement or that are connectional or have any kind of "clerical" authority connected to them. All of that is the practical result of a literal interpretation of a Bible that " has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter." BFM 2000 So the endorsement and support of a worldly, corrupt adulterer, liar, cheater in business, owner of businesses that promote gambling and sexual exploitation, and his political philosophy that is based solely on selfish ambition and greed is a complete abandonment of the principle of being separate from the world, according to common conservative Evangelical interpretation of scripture.
Sandy
 
Posts: 8667
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby Jim » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:34 pm

Sandy wrote: So the endorsement and support of a worldly, corrupt adulterer, liar, cheater in business, owner of businesses that promote gambling and sexual exploitation, and his political philosophy that is based solely on selfish ambition and greed is a complete abandonment of the principle of being separate from the world, according to common conservative Evangelical interpretation of scripture.

Yeah...Bill Clinton was/is all of that but Hillary was/is a much better liar.
Jim
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky.

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:27 am

Jim wrote:
Sandy wrote: So the endorsement and support of a worldly, corrupt adulterer, liar, cheater in business, owner of businesses that promote gambling and sexual exploitation, and his political philosophy that is based solely on selfish ambition and greed is a complete abandonment of the principle of being separate from the world, according to common conservative Evangelical interpretation of scripture.

Yeah...Bill Clinton was/is all of that but Hillary was/is a much better liar.


I love how Trump supporters, when cornered follow their "furher's" lead by attacking Hillary or by going after Elizabeth Warren. If you make more noise, you hope people don't see the real issue.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7189
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Christians and Truth

Postby Sandy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:29 am

Jim wrote:
Sandy wrote: So the endorsement and support of a worldly, corrupt adulterer, liar, cheater in business, owner of businesses that promote gambling and sexual exploitation, and his political philosophy that is based solely on selfish ambition and greed is a complete abandonment of the principle of being separate from the world, according to common conservative Evangelical interpretation of scripture.

Yeah...Bill Clinton was/is all of that but Hillary was/is a much better liar.


I don't recall that any Christian groups, even on the left, ever endorsed or publicly supported either of the Clintons with their name or as an organization or even church. Perhaps there were a few obscure such endorsements here or there from individuals or groups with no real name recognition, but nothing anywhere close to the kind of open endorsement and support that Trump gets from conservative Evangelicals. Resorting to a nebulous comparison to the Clintons simply means that you don't have a legitimate point, and you don't have any factual information to back up your opinion.
Sandy
 
Posts: 8667
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago


Return to Politics and Public Policy Issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests